Originally posted by Reften:

Originally posted by ½-ŠmºkëÐ:

it takes 2 core wood logs to make a bench, 8 core wood logs to build a section of wall, and TWENTY core wood logs to make a Stagbreaker hand-held weapon? Someone failed physics.

rationalize it like this.

There are elements of the core wood needed to make the weapon, small elements. So lots of scrap. For a bench, you basically use 100% of the wood. Wall section generates a bunch of scrape too.

Or, can just say this is a video game....

I rationalise the cost as wasted materials along the way to getting it right. E.g. it takes 20 weight units to make a 5 item, so, the viking took 3~4 attempts to get it right. This also explains upgrading costs, you want a higher tier you need more materials in experimentation to get a result.

Trust me, eventually these quantities will be just a drop in the bucket if you ever plan a huge build.

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

What's your point? It's called grinding.

Grind is a big problem. Why are some survival games so obsessed with this utterly monotone/boring/dumb rock hitting gameplay? Its not terrible to have this stuff in principle, but to require players to spend hours hitting rocks is terrible design.

Besides exploration, Valheim even has some ideas to make mining interesting, like requiring logistics to get ressources home. Progression is semi-locked behind bosses and stuff. So idk why they then want you to spend >10% or so of the game to hit rocks.

Originally posted by XIII:

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

What's your point? It's called grinding.

Grind is a big problem. Why are some survival games so obsessed with this utterly monotone/boring/dumb rock hitting gameplay? Its not terrible to have this stuff in principle, but to require players to spend hours hitting rocks is terrible design.

Besides exploration, Valheim even has some ideas to make mining interesting, like requiring logistics to get ressources home. Progression is semi-locked behind bosses and stuff. So idk why they then want you to spend >10% or so of the game to hit rocks.

I'd say it is par for the course. I have hundreds of hours in ARK, Conan, 7D2D, Icarus.. they all require hours upon hours of gathering. Not sure why this game should be any different.

How would you replace it? What are your proposals? If there was no mining/gathering to do then what would you do once you are done with bosses etc.. I mean if you don't like the grind then just cheat in all the resources. Personally no game "feels" like a grind to me. I love gathering resources it has always been something I was good at and did not mind doing.

I also grew up playing wow 10+ hours a day for like 5 years so.. the word grind to me is probably different than what it means to most lol.

Originally posted by ½-ŠmºkëÐ:

it takes 2 core wood logs to make a bench, 8 core wood logs to build a section of wall, and TWENTY core wood logs to make a Stagbreaker hand-held weapon? Someone failed physics.

rationalize it like this.

There are elements of the core wood needed to make the weapon, small elements. So lots of scrap. For a bench, you basically use 100% of the wood. Wall section generates a bunch of scrape too.

Or, can just say this is a video game....

Originally posted by XIII:

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

What's your point? It's called grinding.

Grind is a big problem. Why are some survival games so obsessed with this utterly monotone/boring/dumb rock hitting gameplay? Its not terrible to have this stuff in principle, but to require players to spend hours hitting rocks is terrible design.

Besides exploration, Valheim even has some ideas to make mining interesting, like requiring logistics to get ressources home. Progression is semi-locked behind bosses and stuff. So idk why they then want you to spend >10% or so of the game to hit rocks.

I've been playing with 1 or 2 other people for the past 6 weeks. Every once in a while we get low on wood, and for 20 minutes, I generate like 10+ stacks of wood. And in 6 weeks and tons of playtime, I've done that like....twice. cmon man, very little grinding involved with this game. NOTHING compared to so many other games. (I'd advise against New World).

Oh and hitting rocks? Lol, c;mon, as soona s you start mining for silver....you'll generate 1000's of rock, just gotta make sure you transport em....

Weapons should require more materials than a bench, since the weapon is way more useful. Plus, 20 core wood is like 2 pine trees, barely anything.

Originally posted by DarthTanyon:

I'd say it is par for the course. I have hundreds of hours in ARK, Conan, 7D2D, Icarus.. they all require hours upon hours of gathering. Not sure why this game should be any different.

How would you replace it? What are your proposals? If there was no mining/gathering to do then what would you do once you are done with bosses etc.. I mean if you don't like the grind then just cheat in all the resources. Personally no game "feels" like a grind to me. I love gathering resources it has always been something I was good at and did not mind doing.

I also grew up playing wow 10+ hours a day for like 5 years so.. the word grind to me is probably different than what it means to most lol.

I mean, I dont wanna be judgemental, but that much WOW is just unhealthy^^
Thats like a game preying on addiction, at that point were so far away from "good" gameplay.

Im not saying they should remove all mining, let alone gathering. That is integral to many survival games. But there is good parts and bad part about it, and I think indeed many games are just really damn lazy about it. They just take the concept from other games without thinking as a background, and then do what the thing actually want.
Like Ark wants cool Dino-action, 7Days wants zombie survival and wave defense.

Otoh? Subnautica too the survival elements, then ground' them down to a reasonable level to do what it wanted. As a result, its an extremely well paced, streamlined game that doesnt really lose much.

Lets just take what Id say is good about the ressource system in Valheim:
1. Makes you explore the world, travel to new islands
2. Rewards attention to the world, you can find a bunch of (more or less) hidden stuff
3. You get to setup bases, outposts, portals, tradelines, pathways and more. You mold the world you explore for convenience
4. And direct logistics; you move (ore) ressources with vehicles around, that requires planning and rewards optimization
5. Your tools and enemies scale with your advancement; every more challenging enemies to fight, but also more interesting tools, its very motivating to go on.
6. Fighting enemies and bosses for ressources is challenging and fun, assuming its not doing the same thing for 10 hours
7. The dynamic between ressource gathering while defending yourself against dangers creates the feel of a living, or at least dangerous world
8. There is satisfaction in having the experience, tools and strategies to do effective ressource gathering. Using your smarts, not your brawns, you get better

Stuff like that is why ressource systems can be very useful to the game, they can drive you and benefit the game a lot. But then you get to that point:

You hit Rocks and Trees till stamina goes zero, wait till its back up, then repeat, for many, many hours. This isnt even gameplay, its like idle waiting.
So how does that really benefit the game? I know for some people "numbers going up" is already enjoyment, but thats again almost (and clearly NOT intentionally by the devs) aiming at gambling addiction style symptoms. Theres hardly any gameplay purpose in the long time it takes to break down a vein.

You see the list I made is about making you get invested in the world, think about what to do, plan travels, be attentive and forwardthinking. Skill and smarts are rewarded, it makes you work in line with the worlds systems. Thats how gameplay elements should imo work, be part of a bigger thing. Not just "wait for X to be over so you can continue playing".


And games like Valheim or 7 Days advance the survival genre in many ways, but those "hit rock for hours" thing has remained unchanged and is, IMO, just lazy. They just take the system because they dont know or care to improve it.
Of course theres mods that can just make you do more damage against rocks, I even decided to add one late in my game, but thats irrelevant to gameplay-discussion.

Originally posted by Reften:

I've been playing with 1 or 2 other people for the past 6 weeks. Every once in a while we get low on wood, and for 20 minutes, I generate like 10+ stacks of wood. And in 6 weeks and tons of playtime, I've done that like....twice. cmon man, very little grinding involved with this game. NOTHING compared to so many other games. (I'd advise against New World).

At least rock/wood gets much quicker with mid-to-lategame gear, Ill agree with that.

But I feel you didnt do much with the woods, 10 stacks are very quickly used up when building, running fires, crafting/coal.

And even then its like 20 minutes of idle gameplay though. You do talk like its a boring chore you just wanna get quickly over with, so you can enjoy the actual game. And I think thats the problem, it doesnt have to be that way.

Other games are worse, but some online games are so insane you basically have to be addicted to play them. I think thats a pretty horrible standard to say "at least were better than that".

Oh and hitting rocks? Lol, c;mon, as soona s you start mining for silver....you'll generate 1000's of rock, just gotta make sure you transport em....

Shoulda been more precise, with "hitting rocks", I ment ores more than I mean rock; wood/rocks are more a tedious early game thing. Silver mining is pretty bad and takes forever; thats actually what made me start modding my game (just increased rock/vein damage for now).

You overcome obstacles to get to a goal. You will cherish something far more if you had to actually work for it instead of finding it on the street.

Welcome to video games... your first time playing one? It also takes 125 black metal to upgrade a single weapon or tool to T4. What's your point? It's called grinding.

How far into to the game are you? Did you encounter the amount of ore needed for crafting and upgrading yet? :p

A fully upgraded weapon weighs about 800 units.

And does wielding the heavier weapon drain stamina faster like heavier armor does compared to lighter?