Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment
What started this was a discussion about cheating—specifically, whether transporting goods across worlds is cheating or not: My twitch response was that as soon as you leave the fantasy for computer science you are cheating. If it starts with F5 or Esc, it's a cheat, on the grounds that it breaks the fantasy.
This includes turf-nerfing, to speed up mushroom hunting. Technically, it also includes quitting. Well, you broke the fantasy and went back to your real life. Our character cannot do that.
Of course, this assumes that the right way to play Valheim or any RPG is to stick to your role. Like an actor in a play, you don't knock down scenery that happens to be cardboard. You treat it as real.
Quitting is a cheat, by that definition. And so is pausing.
Suits me. Lots of things are technically cheating that fall short of Lovecraftian evil.
But technical cheating ain't what we mean by cheating, technically. If I claim I did a Valheim speed-run in only 12 minutes, but the video shows me playing pinball, imacheater. I played a game of pinball and said it was Valheim. It doesn't matter that I hacked a vpinball game:
"See? It says 'Valheim' right there on the backboard."
"Yeah, but that's a picture of the Blues Brothers."
"No, those are trolls wearing sunglasses."
"And the Blues Brothers theme music?"
"Presentation!"
OK, that would be evil from beyond the stars, but the important thing is that I didn't play the game I said I was playing. Although it might have been a give-away when I added that in 12 minutes I scored over 35 million points.
I don't like the word "cheating," not only because it can be pejorative, but because it's not always so easy to define what "cheating" means for an RPG, much less one that's under development.
Any clear definition of cheating needs a complete set of rules, like chess. The definition of "classic chess" is the rules for classic chess. In principle, we can always decide whether someone has or has not cheated at classic chess, and if they have, we can and do say that they did not "play the game."
For any well-defined game, "cheating" is synonymous with not playing the game, but claiming that you did. For any game that is not well-defined, it's harder to get at a useful definition of cheating.
If you let me say that any true game must be well-defined, then you'll agree that Valheim itself is not a game, but a gaming environment (like the chessboard and pieces) from which any number of games can be extracted just by clearly defining some rules. Give such a list of rules a name, and I can say I did a run of "Valheim-X" in only 187 hours and it would be meaningful. If I lie, and I didn't play by those rules, I am a cheater: I did not play the game I said that I played.
One game that is easy to define is speedrunning. To cheat means to splice the video that proves your time, to play a hacked version of the game or not the build claimed. That's all. Sub-genres might add rules about exploiting actual bugs, etc.
I think most of us as least start on the same page when it comes to defining "Strict RPG," (or maybe just "RPG" or, since this is an RPG game, "default" rules):
Rule 1 is "Don't drop the R. Stay in character."
Our character doesn't know this is only a game, or anything about gaming engine limitations and exploits. This might be the player's 3rd run, but our character has little idea what the future holds. They have no Internet. We can assume they are smart enough to connect data dots as fast as they become available, though, and have fun arguing about how soon it would be possible to figure out such things as killing a boss changes the nature of the attacks they experience. (Not much fun. That one's easy)
Most people play a modified form of RPG in which the character has access to some player knowledge, but does not use or is not aware of exploits and hacks the player deems out-of-bounds. This is the game that gets really personal, but it lets you measure your own progress more easily. I nominate "PRPG" to label this kind of game.
I have begun to appreciate that in Valheim strict RPG might take too many hours for players who can only play a few hours a week. The game I am playing now would have taken years when I was working. Working people need a playable Valheim: "IHAJAIAPTGPG" ("I Have a Job And It Aint Playing This Game") might be a good choice, although it is hard to pronounce without sounding like your are swearing in Old Norse. Or possibly Klingon.
This includes turf-nerfing, to speed up mushroom hunting. Technically, it also includes quitting. Well, you broke the fantasy and went back to your real life. Our character cannot do that.
Of course, this assumes that the right way to play Valheim or any RPG is to stick to your role. Like an actor in a play, you don't knock down scenery that happens to be cardboard. You treat it as real.
Quitting is a cheat, by that definition. And so is pausing.
Suits me. Lots of things are technically cheating that fall short of Lovecraftian evil.
But technical cheating ain't what we mean by cheating, technically. If I claim I did a Valheim speed-run in only 12 minutes, but the video shows me playing pinball, imacheater. I played a game of pinball and said it was Valheim. It doesn't matter that I hacked a vpinball game:
"See? It says 'Valheim' right there on the backboard."
"Yeah, but that's a picture of the Blues Brothers."
"No, those are trolls wearing sunglasses."
"And the Blues Brothers theme music?"
"Presentation!"
OK, that would be evil from beyond the stars, but the important thing is that I didn't play the game I said I was playing. Although it might have been a give-away when I added that in 12 minutes I scored over 35 million points.
I don't like the word "cheating," not only because it can be pejorative, but because it's not always so easy to define what "cheating" means for an RPG, much less one that's under development.
Any clear definition of cheating needs a complete set of rules, like chess. The definition of "classic chess" is the rules for classic chess. In principle, we can always decide whether someone has or has not cheated at classic chess, and if they have, we can and do say that they did not "play the game."
For any well-defined game, "cheating" is synonymous with not playing the game, but claiming that you did. For any game that is not well-defined, it's harder to get at a useful definition of cheating.
If you let me say that any true game must be well-defined, then you'll agree that Valheim itself is not a game, but a gaming environment (like the chessboard and pieces) from which any number of games can be extracted just by clearly defining some rules. Give such a list of rules a name, and I can say I did a run of "Valheim-X" in only 187 hours and it would be meaningful. If I lie, and I didn't play by those rules, I am a cheater: I did not play the game I said that I played.
One game that is easy to define is speedrunning. To cheat means to splice the video that proves your time, to play a hacked version of the game or not the build claimed. That's all. Sub-genres might add rules about exploiting actual bugs, etc.
I think most of us as least start on the same page when it comes to defining "Strict RPG," (or maybe just "RPG" or, since this is an RPG game, "default" rules):
Rule 1 is "Don't drop the R. Stay in character."
Our character doesn't know this is only a game, or anything about gaming engine limitations and exploits. This might be the player's 3rd run, but our character has little idea what the future holds. They have no Internet. We can assume they are smart enough to connect data dots as fast as they become available, though, and have fun arguing about how soon it would be possible to figure out such things as killing a boss changes the nature of the attacks they experience. (Not much fun. That one's easy)
Most people play a modified form of RPG in which the character has access to some player knowledge, but does not use or is not aware of exploits and hacks the player deems out-of-bounds. This is the game that gets really personal, but it lets you measure your own progress more easily. I nominate "PRPG" to label this kind of game.
I have begun to appreciate that in Valheim strict RPG might take too many hours for players who can only play a few hours a week. The game I am playing now would have taken years when I was working. Working people need a playable Valheim: "IHAJAIAPTGPG" ("I Have a Job And It Aint Playing This Game") might be a good choice, although it is hard to pronounce without sounding like your are swearing in Old Norse. Or possibly Klingon.
6:13 pm, February 23, 2023
Mandos replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 10:47:24 am PST
Years ago I put a super charger on a truck. I often wonder if I’m a cheater because the truck was no longer vanilla.
If you agreed to partake in a street race against other vanilla trucks then yes, you are a cheater. If you compare the performance of your truck with other truck owners without disclosing that you modified it and everyone assumes you did not, then yes you are a cheater. If you blow your transmission because of your modification and then start a warranty claim without saying you did what you did, then yeah well you get the idea.
What OP is saying here is not that anyone who modifies the game is a cheater or that anyone who plays the game differently is a cheater. What he wants is to engage in a theoretical discussion about what cheating may or may not be and in which context it could be. He practically offers an academic thought of what cheating might be defined as.
He also refers quite often to speedrunning. In the speedrunning community there are various different categories and many of those exist to define what cheating would be for a certain speedrun. They define the start point and end point and which tools - if any - may be used. That's partly where 100% and any% speedruns come from: Because depending on what you define as cheating an any% speedrun could be seen as cheating if you didn't define what cheating was beforehand.
If the Valheim community would come up with some kind of challenge like open PvP, best architectural achievements, any kind of speedrun or whatever, then what OP is talking about certainly would have to be looked at and be defined in someway so proper comparisons could be made.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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Rhapsody replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 10:56:32 am PST
It's almost like us humans interacting with our own real life environment. Constantly trying to push and break things for little conveniences. 
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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Zep Tepi replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 11:08:19 am PST
In my opinion, cheating only occurs when you break a contract or agreement, sometimes these are unwritten or implied, with a living person. Sometimes that person is yourself.
If I told myself I was going to do a permadeath run, and then I kept going after my character died, then that would be cheating. I would have to have a discussion with myself about my reasons for doing so and my self would have to determine if those reasonswere strong enough to justify it. The only real consequence would be disappointing myself and maybe feeling like the rest of the run was tainted in some way. But that's entirely between me and myself.
I could, and did, have another conversation with myself though: Hey self, I just got to level 19 sneak for the third time now. Skill loss on death is dumb and I've thought so in every game I've ever played that included it. Corpse runs provide challenge and adventure, but this is just causing me to worry about numbers (which as pointed out above is immersion breaking). Shall we get rid of it? Heck yes.
In that second conversation, I haven't broken a contract or agreement with anyone. No, not the devs either. My only contract with them is that I paid money to download and install their game. As long as I don't do anything that interferes with their intellectual property, I can play it however I like.
As above, if your contract with yourself includes role play, then you should stick to it as much as possible. Not everyone emphasizes that element in their play. They might be speed runners or builders, which have their own entirely different sets of priorities. Are role players, speed runners and builders all playing different games? Yes, they are. It's great that this sandbox has room for all of those styles.
That's all for solo games though. On a server there will probably be house rules about what is and is not accepted. If there was a competition, there would be rules there too. The builders who put videos up on YouTube aren't technically required to put up a disclaimer, but it would be better if they did because they are implying certain things to their audience which may or may not be true. (You know what? Real life home remodeling shows are cheating too.)
So more or less, random people on the internet don't get to tell me which contracts I did or did not agree to. I am not in competition or cooperation with them and I haven't made any such agreements. I owe them nothing.
As far as recommending mods go, if someone tells me they want to drink coffee but find it too bitter, I'll tell them where to get cream and they can decide for themselves if they like it or not. You all act like I'm getting them hooked on drugs or something.
If I told myself I was going to do a permadeath run, and then I kept going after my character died, then that would be cheating. I would have to have a discussion with myself about my reasons for doing so and my self would have to determine if those reasonswere strong enough to justify it. The only real consequence would be disappointing myself and maybe feeling like the rest of the run was tainted in some way. But that's entirely between me and myself.
I could, and did, have another conversation with myself though: Hey self, I just got to level 19 sneak for the third time now. Skill loss on death is dumb and I've thought so in every game I've ever played that included it. Corpse runs provide challenge and adventure, but this is just causing me to worry about numbers (which as pointed out above is immersion breaking). Shall we get rid of it? Heck yes.
In that second conversation, I haven't broken a contract or agreement with anyone. No, not the devs either. My only contract with them is that I paid money to download and install their game. As long as I don't do anything that interferes with their intellectual property, I can play it however I like.
As above, if your contract with yourself includes role play, then you should stick to it as much as possible. Not everyone emphasizes that element in their play. They might be speed runners or builders, which have their own entirely different sets of priorities. Are role players, speed runners and builders all playing different games? Yes, they are. It's great that this sandbox has room for all of those styles.
That's all for solo games though. On a server there will probably be house rules about what is and is not accepted. If there was a competition, there would be rules there too. The builders who put videos up on YouTube aren't technically required to put up a disclaimer, but it would be better if they did because they are implying certain things to their audience which may or may not be true. (You know what? Real life home remodeling shows are cheating too.)
So more or less, random people on the internet don't get to tell me which contracts I did or did not agree to. I am not in competition or cooperation with them and I haven't made any such agreements. I owe them nothing.
As far as recommending mods go, if someone tells me they want to drink coffee but find it too bitter, I'll tell them where to get cream and they can decide for themselves if they like it or not. You all act like I'm getting them hooked on drugs or something.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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umop-apisdn replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 11:56:15 am PST
This discussion about whether or not something is or isn't "cheating" is ludicrous.
It's very simple: Is it honest, up-front, and agreed upon by all concerned parties? Then it's not cheating, it's just a different set of rules.
Some examples:
If we decide to play Valheim together and I tell you before we start that I'd like to use a mod that makes each chopped-down tree provide 1,000 wood... if you agree, then I'm not cheating, it's just a mod.
Similarly, if I go on a date with a woman who is not my wife, but both my wife and the woman are aware that I am married and dating... and everyone is okay with it, then it's not cheating, it's just an open relationship.
It's not the act itself that determines whether it's "cheating"; it's lying about it.
That truck with the aftermarket super charger? It's not cheating unless you claim the truck is vanilla. The moment you lie about it, you're in the wrong.
It's very simple: Is it honest, up-front, and agreed upon by all concerned parties? Then it's not cheating, it's just a different set of rules.
Some examples:
If we decide to play Valheim together and I tell you before we start that I'd like to use a mod that makes each chopped-down tree provide 1,000 wood... if you agree, then I'm not cheating, it's just a mod.
Similarly, if I go on a date with a woman who is not my wife, but both my wife and the woman are aware that I am married and dating... and everyone is okay with it, then it's not cheating, it's just an open relationship.
It's not the act itself that determines whether it's "cheating"; it's lying about it.
That truck with the aftermarket super charger? It's not cheating unless you claim the truck is vanilla. The moment you lie about it, you're in the wrong.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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Foxglovez replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:14:00 pm PST
No Mans Sky has a logo now that you get by setting your game up and locking it in normal. It cannot be changed. Anyone who customizes the game gets a different logo behind their name that all can see. Cuts down on the bs'ery of folks making vids of themselves doing things and bragging when they have customized their game, be it harder or easier. Hasn't solved all of the issues but many have just gone away, along with the folks that swaggered around.
The issue of cheating is a thorny one.
Solo - If your game crashes and you lose important stuff that will take you a long time to recover, do you give those things back to yourself because you don't want to take the time to get them again? If your body is in the middle of the sea? You get the drift... Those same people who replace items easily forget those times when they want to punish others. Or feel that punishment and a good dressing down are in order.
In MP - you play on a server where everyone else is new and you bring in a leveled up character, and no one knows or understands how OP that character is, is that cheating? Someone dies and no one is there to help get the body back, bring in items from another world you wont use in fighting but helps your building, how cheaty is that? The slippery slope is always very close.
So what I'm saying is most folks have a price, and will cheat but call it something more palatable when it is acceptable to them/us. Rare is the ruthlessly honest human. Total honesty in all things would be an interesting concept for our times. The internet just makes it so easy, the anonymity of it all. And the usual reaction has been "It's just the internet" a place where many now spend most of their time, no longer a triviality in our lives.
Thoughts to ponder.
The issue of cheating is a thorny one.
Solo - If your game crashes and you lose important stuff that will take you a long time to recover, do you give those things back to yourself because you don't want to take the time to get them again? If your body is in the middle of the sea? You get the drift... Those same people who replace items easily forget those times when they want to punish others. Or feel that punishment and a good dressing down are in order.
In MP - you play on a server where everyone else is new and you bring in a leveled up character, and no one knows or understands how OP that character is, is that cheating? Someone dies and no one is there to help get the body back, bring in items from another world you wont use in fighting but helps your building, how cheaty is that? The slippery slope is always very close.
So what I'm saying is most folks have a price, and will cheat but call it something more palatable when it is acceptable to them/us. Rare is the ruthlessly honest human. Total honesty in all things would be an interesting concept for our times. The internet just makes it so easy, the anonymity of it all. And the usual reaction has been "It's just the internet" a place where many now spend most of their time, no longer a triviality in our lives.
Thoughts to ponder.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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Hobo Misanthropus replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:22:12 pm PST
Any time you alter or circumvent the intended game mechanics, it's, by definition, cheating.
Pause quitting to save yourself is 100% cheating.
Modding the game so Ores can teleport is cheating
Using Cloud backups to recover items is cheating (Even if it was caused by a crash)
Using 3rd party quality of life additions IS CHEATING.
The developers are the DM, you can discuss things you think should change, but ultimately if they don't greenlight it by virtue of making an addition to the game, it is cheating. Full stop, there is no argument to be had on this subject.
The only argument to be had is whether or not it matters, if it does, when does it matter and why? And that's a personal question. If the idea that doing something as simple as changing the UI to give more information might be cheating, causes you anger, the thought that YOU might be a cheater, you're only fooling yourself. No amount of cognitive dissonance and your aggressive reaction to it can change the fact that it is, by definition, cheating.
All mods are cheats. All cheats are mods. Make peace with that. Don't lash out at other people for pointing it out.
Me, I don't like cheating in games, in any form. I like to experience (For better or worse) the experience intended by the developer. Even making the game technically harder I consider cheating. You're breaking mechanics, intended balance or progression for your own enjoyment. There's NOTHING WRONG WITH DOING THAT, but you just have to freely admit that's exactly what you're doing, so in this world of videogame voyeurism we live in, your are framing the expectations properly.
Pause quitting to save yourself is 100% cheating.
Modding the game so Ores can teleport is cheating
Using Cloud backups to recover items is cheating (Even if it was caused by a crash)
Using 3rd party quality of life additions IS CHEATING.
The developers are the DM, you can discuss things you think should change, but ultimately if they don't greenlight it by virtue of making an addition to the game, it is cheating. Full stop, there is no argument to be had on this subject.
The only argument to be had is whether or not it matters, if it does, when does it matter and why? And that's a personal question. If the idea that doing something as simple as changing the UI to give more information might be cheating, causes you anger, the thought that YOU might be a cheater, you're only fooling yourself. No amount of cognitive dissonance and your aggressive reaction to it can change the fact that it is, by definition, cheating.
All mods are cheats. All cheats are mods. Make peace with that. Don't lash out at other people for pointing it out.
Me, I don't like cheating in games, in any form. I like to experience (For better or worse) the experience intended by the developer. Even making the game technically harder I consider cheating. You're breaking mechanics, intended balance or progression for your own enjoyment. There's NOTHING WRONG WITH DOING THAT, but you just have to freely admit that's exactly what you're doing, so in this world of videogame voyeurism we live in, your are framing the expectations properly.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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shangoose replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:29:46 pm PST
You cannot cheat, if there is no one to be cheated.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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Hobo Misanthropus replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:34:21 pm PST
You cannot cheat, if there is no one to be cheated.
You're cheating the designers of the game. It is 100% impossible to play a game solo, because a game by definition requires a failure state dictated by a designer who functions as the adversary by proxy of their design.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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shangoose replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:43:15 pm PST
You cannot cheat, if there is no one to be cheated.
You're cheating the designers of the game. It is 100% impossible to play a game solo, because a game by definition requires a failure state dictated by a designer.
then the designer has failed by incorporating mechanics within the game that i can use to bypass their set failure state. if i am able to harvest fine wood by continually rolling regular logs in to the fine wood tree until it falls, is that cheating? it is certainly the design of the game that i should progress to bronze before being able to harvest fine wood.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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umop-apisdn replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:43:30 pm PST
Any time you alter or circumvent the intended game mechanics, it's, by definition, cheating.No, that's enabled by the developers, and is thus (by definition) "intended game mechanics".
Pause quitting to save yourself is 100% cheating.
Modding the game so Ores can teleport is cheatingNo, that's enabled by the developers, and is thus (by definition) "intended game mechanics".
Using Cloud backups to recover items is cheating (Even if it was caused by a crash)No, that's enabled by the developers, and is thus (by definition) "intended game mechanics".
Using 3rd party quality of life additions IS CHEATING.No, that's enabled by the developers, and is thus (by definition) "intended game mechanics".
The developers are the DM, you can discuss things you think should change, but ultimately if they don't greenlight it by virtue of making an addition to the game, it is cheating. Full stop, there is no argument to be had on this subject.Absolutely correct, but I think diametrically opposed to what you think you're saying. "Modding" is enabled by the developers, and is thus (by definition) "intended game mechanics".
Quit virtue signaling and have a proper discussion, yeah?
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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jonnin replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 12:49:04 pm PST
^^ Not sure modding is officially sanctioned, enabled, or supported by the devs. I think they said 'after release' on that. Anyone can hack a game, as long as it does not proactively defend itself (eg validate all game files against an encryption hash / crc etc and fail if any are not matched) from it, and not adding checks for defending against hackery isn't explicit sanctioning (though sort of a nod and smile in that direction). Most MMOs and such actively attempt to defeat modding/cheating. Most solo games don't. The in-between (usually co-op) games like this one.. are what they are.
And I strongly disagree that restoring a backup after a crash is cheating. This is why backups exist. Is it still cheating if the current file won't load or is totally gone? That seems extra weird to call out. Granted you CAN certainly abuse backup files to cheat (this is my preferred approach if I feel the need to cheat). That is not what the backup files were intended for.
And I strongly disagree that restoring a backup after a crash is cheating. This is why backups exist. Is it still cheating if the current file won't load or is totally gone? That seems extra weird to call out. Granted you CAN certainly abuse backup files to cheat (this is my preferred approach if I feel the need to cheat). That is not what the backup files were intended for.
9:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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[TG$] Ewspne replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 9:25:33 am PST
I really want your hot take on Mods, be it City Skylines, Skyrim, or Stardew.
6:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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stvlepore replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 9:41:43 am PST
Years ago I put a super charger on a truck. I often wonder if I’m a cheater because the truck was no longer vanilla.
6:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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jonnin replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 9:49:03 am PST
I agree with the OP specifically when talking about presentation. A great many of the online builds appear to have been created using, at the very least, the rotate any which way mod. There are things that just canna be done without 'cheating'.
These builds are pretty, check.
These builds, I wanted to see them, check again.
And, I don't have a problem with 'cheating' -- I have done my own fair share in this and other games, even wrote mods long ago before they were called such, back when you hex edited the executable or an an overlay that scrambled the game's memory directly.
But I wish they had a disclaimer about how they got there if it was not done in vanilla. Nothing is more frustrating to someone that trying to recreate something you saw when it can't be done. And, I would find the community a bit better (you guys are nice, by and large, which is a huge plus) if every question were not immediately answered by "just install a cheat or use dev cheat"
These builds are pretty, check.
These builds, I wanted to see them, check again.
And, I don't have a problem with 'cheating' -- I have done my own fair share in this and other games, even wrote mods long ago before they were called such, back when you hex edited the executable or an an overlay that scrambled the game's memory directly.
But I wish they had a disclaimer about how they got there if it was not done in vanilla. Nothing is more frustrating to someone that trying to recreate something you saw when it can't be done. And, I would find the community a bit better (you guys are nice, by and large, which is a huge plus) if every question were not immediately answered by "just install a cheat or use dev cheat"
6:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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knighttemplar1960 replied to Valheim is not a Game, It is a Gaming Environment February 23, 2023 @ 9:52:19 am PST
So essentially the entire game is a cheat since it starts off by moving you from what ever world you were in to the world of Valheim. Since that mechanic is all ready in game from the beginning why is it cheating to move from one Valheim world to another? Why should moving invalidate all the hours you spent with that save gathering the resources that are in your back pack? If the Devs wanted us to play strictly in a single Valheim world there would be no need for additional world seeds. We would all be playing on the same world map and when one of us mined out an ore patch it would be mined out for every one else too.
6:13 pm, February 23, 2023
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