How do we feel about skill progression?
Looking up the wiki (H&H may have changed these values, like with bows maybe), it looks like this is what you get at 100 skill:
Running+25% Run speed -50% stamina usage. This one seems pretty good. Combine it with the Eikthyr buff and you can Run Forrest all over the map. Its also one of those skills that is pretty much always steadily increasing, and thus I would assume the highest stat most players will have at any given time.
Jumping +40% Jump force. The term 'force' here suggests its not just raw vertical jump height that improves, so when sprinting I'd assume much greater horizontal distance you can cover. Notable here is that the stamina cost of jumping doesn't go down however, so unlike improving the Run skill improving Jumping doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. While I like to jump to hop out of harms way, as a matter of practicality being able to jump more frequently is more relevant than being able to jump a bit higher/further. Its what I like about the Eikthyr buff as well, particularly since you'll get access to that buff at a point when your run/jump is still pretty garbage.
Sneak -60% initial sneak visibility, -20% light based visibility and -75% stamina usage. So this one gives you a lot, and hitting unaware enemies is a nice burst. The reduced stamina is significant compared to what you get for other skills, but sneaking means you are moving slowly. I'm not sure how practical this strategy is overall; in theory you could have the Troll Leather set to ambush enemies and hopefully one shot them. But I can do that with a bow from far away without having to rely too hard on subtlety anyway, so why would I risk getting right up behind them to stab them in the neck instead?
Blocking +50% block power. I imagine this could stack up nicely with the higher tier tower shields to be able to just mitigate hits outright. Though it is too bad it doesn't contribute anything to parrying or the stamina cost of blocking itself. If the skill only went up based on just the flat # of blocks then it also seems like it would take ages to max it out.
Swim -50% stamina usage. Swimming is slow and takes much longer to get anywhere, and you take damage in deep water at 0 stamina so it feels tedious to level it up to a significant amount. Half stamina/second is nice but thats at 100 swimming when in practice most people are going to have a fraction of that. I also don't understand why you wouldn't at least make it faster like with running since the default swim speed is extremely slow. Even with less stamina drain, it means swampy areas are still a liability because the water will slow you down just as much regardless.
Mining and Woodcutting +150% vs material (mining says also -33% stamina use, I'm assuming woodcutting also gets this via axes?). Not super important, just a convenient reduction in time and stamina spent whacking away at resources.
Bows 150% damage and (used to be) -100% draw time. Apparently nerfed in the last update wrt draw time but I can't recall the exact value now. When you factor that the stamina use is directly tied to the amount of time drawing the bow the reduction in draw time, even if its less, is still significant. With a slower draw bows are mainly used for the initial shot but with faster draw you can be much more aggressive with them. I would assume people spend much of their time pelting bosses with arrows, which makes this skill quite relevant. In testing now, I observed a HUGE difference from 0 to 100 bow skill even after the update.
All other weapons +150% damage and -33% stamina drain. The combination of damage and stamina reduction make your typical 3 hit combo much more efficient; you'll get more hits off before running out of stamina. Even at 30 weapon skill (not super difficult to obtain) you're theoretically looking at 50% damage -10% stamina use which is nice. While I know its EA and the values might change, the uniformity of the bonus across different weapon types does give me pause. It will typically motivate players to focus on the most DPS efficient weapon type since maxing out a suboptimal weapon type won't be worth it in the long run (aside from just being for fun, of course :) ) . In the future, I do hope we see more unique improvements to different weapons to encourage players to experiment and build up many different weapon skills since at the high end they will offer more unique experiences.
So how do you feel about the skills in the game? Fair? Too good? Is losing 5% of your stats each death fair? I know there are going to be the 'git good' and people that can scramble around Valheim for hundreds of hours as a naked caveman without dying. But realistically the penalty should be harsh enough to motivate players to be careful/fight smart yet not so punishing it discourages people from trying or burns them out. One thing I did notice in this regard is that it takes progressively more effort to make skills go up, which means the higher they were when you died the more time you lost in the process. Is it expected that an average player will be motivated to try to max out stats even if they do die frequently in the game? Even if you're not Leeroy Jenkins careless you're going to have "Valheim moments" (falling trees ) sometimes.
Also, in testing, how do you feel your Einherjar performs at, say, 0/25/50/75/100 skill overall? Even with linear improvements, there will be 'jumps' in progression (if you become just strong enough to kill a particular enemy in 1 less hit then your survivability improves quite a bit more than a fraction of a percent). On the other hand, if the values themselves are still negligible then it kills the motivation to work towards building that skill up for all but the most obsessed minmaxers.
Running+25% Run speed -50% stamina usage. This one seems pretty good. Combine it with the Eikthyr buff and you can Run Forrest all over the map. Its also one of those skills that is pretty much always steadily increasing, and thus I would assume the highest stat most players will have at any given time.
Jumping +40% Jump force. The term 'force' here suggests its not just raw vertical jump height that improves, so when sprinting I'd assume much greater horizontal distance you can cover. Notable here is that the stamina cost of jumping doesn't go down however, so unlike improving the Run skill improving Jumping doesn't necessarily make it more efficient. While I like to jump to hop out of harms way, as a matter of practicality being able to jump more frequently is more relevant than being able to jump a bit higher/further. Its what I like about the Eikthyr buff as well, particularly since you'll get access to that buff at a point when your run/jump is still pretty garbage.
Sneak -60% initial sneak visibility, -20% light based visibility and -75% stamina usage. So this one gives you a lot, and hitting unaware enemies is a nice burst. The reduced stamina is significant compared to what you get for other skills, but sneaking means you are moving slowly. I'm not sure how practical this strategy is overall; in theory you could have the Troll Leather set to ambush enemies and hopefully one shot them. But I can do that with a bow from far away without having to rely too hard on subtlety anyway, so why would I risk getting right up behind them to stab them in the neck instead?
Blocking +50% block power. I imagine this could stack up nicely with the higher tier tower shields to be able to just mitigate hits outright. Though it is too bad it doesn't contribute anything to parrying or the stamina cost of blocking itself. If the skill only went up based on just the flat # of blocks then it also seems like it would take ages to max it out.
Swim -50% stamina usage. Swimming is slow and takes much longer to get anywhere, and you take damage in deep water at 0 stamina so it feels tedious to level it up to a significant amount. Half stamina/second is nice but thats at 100 swimming when in practice most people are going to have a fraction of that. I also don't understand why you wouldn't at least make it faster like with running since the default swim speed is extremely slow. Even with less stamina drain, it means swampy areas are still a liability because the water will slow you down just as much regardless.
Mining and Woodcutting +150% vs material (mining says also -33% stamina use, I'm assuming woodcutting also gets this via axes?). Not super important, just a convenient reduction in time and stamina spent whacking away at resources.
Bows 150% damage and (used to be) -100% draw time. Apparently nerfed in the last update wrt draw time but I can't recall the exact value now. When you factor that the stamina use is directly tied to the amount of time drawing the bow the reduction in draw time, even if its less, is still significant. With a slower draw bows are mainly used for the initial shot but with faster draw you can be much more aggressive with them. I would assume people spend much of their time pelting bosses with arrows, which makes this skill quite relevant. In testing now, I observed a HUGE difference from 0 to 100 bow skill even after the update.
All other weapons +150% damage and -33% stamina drain. The combination of damage and stamina reduction make your typical 3 hit combo much more efficient; you'll get more hits off before running out of stamina. Even at 30 weapon skill (not super difficult to obtain) you're theoretically looking at 50% damage -10% stamina use which is nice. While I know its EA and the values might change, the uniformity of the bonus across different weapon types does give me pause. It will typically motivate players to focus on the most DPS efficient weapon type since maxing out a suboptimal weapon type won't be worth it in the long run (aside from just being for fun, of course :) ) . In the future, I do hope we see more unique improvements to different weapons to encourage players to experiment and build up many different weapon skills since at the high end they will offer more unique experiences.
So how do you feel about the skills in the game? Fair? Too good? Is losing 5% of your stats each death fair? I know there are going to be the 'git good' and people that can scramble around Valheim for hundreds of hours as a naked caveman without dying. But realistically the penalty should be harsh enough to motivate players to be careful/fight smart yet not so punishing it discourages people from trying or burns them out. One thing I did notice in this regard is that it takes progressively more effort to make skills go up, which means the higher they were when you died the more time you lost in the process. Is it expected that an average player will be motivated to try to max out stats even if they do die frequently in the game? Even if you're not Leeroy Jenkins careless you're going to have "Valheim moments" (falling trees ) sometimes.
Also, in testing, how do you feel your Einherjar performs at, say, 0/25/50/75/100 skill overall? Even with linear improvements, there will be 'jumps' in progression (if you become just strong enough to kill a particular enemy in 1 less hit then your survivability improves quite a bit more than a fraction of a percent). On the other hand, if the values themselves are still negligible then it kills the motivation to work towards building that skill up for all but the most obsessed minmaxers.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
Banned replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:04:22 am PDT
Snip..
You'll never get to 100 or even above 80. Without cheating, using mods, macros.. etc.
ie Cheating. Pick your tube streamer of choice for how.
The bonus is slightly noticable at 50.. which is where the avg majority will be in skills. Overall the entire idea of rising skills via action in valheim is abit of a scam with the death penalty.
My skills with Wolf Armour. Maxed. ie pre plains. But everything else.
Clubs 30 Run 41 Bows 26 Jump 26 Wood Cutting 38 Pickaxe 38 Swords 41. All the other skills are below 10. Blocking is 12.
2:13 pm, September 25, 2021
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Fzanco replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 1:19:33 pm PDT
I can't read their minds but it seems the devs don't expect anyone to reach 100 in any skills, the death penalty shows this, this games about creativity, planning, execution, journeying and having some nice food.
I'm near 500 days in a character and highest skill is running at 79 and I don't ever see me getting to 100 cause I'm gonna die someday soon doing something and that's going to send me back. When the games finished I plan on beating it before it hits 365 days cause Odin needs to be impressed with my skill not my skill level.
I'm near 500 days in a character and highest skill is running at 79 and I don't ever see me getting to 100 cause I'm gonna die someday soon doing something and that's going to send me back. When the games finished I plan on beating it before it hits 365 days cause Odin needs to be impressed with my skill not my skill level.
5:13 am, September 25, 2021
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GunsForBucks replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 1:19:51 pm PDT
Personally I think a lot of balance in the game could be tweaked just by making skill progress faster overall. Things wouldn't feel so tedious if you could gain decent breakpoint benefits of the skills earlier.
5:13 am, September 25, 2021
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Grandaddypurple replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 10:37:17 am PDT
Nice breakdown post
I'm giving my 10 cents on what usually make people unhappy about the skill system
-Bow
On my current playthrough I'm at ~30 skill level, I honestly never felt impeded by draw time/stamina usage. Fair to me
-Running and Jumping
Honestly these two should be merged as "athletic" skill... when running home to haul wood or metals I find myself using the first boss buff and jumping around to level it. Jumping is such an important mechanic in this game yet you have too few occasions to level it legitimately
-Mining and Woodcutting
That one I noticed that the higher tier tool you use the more materials you get. With Bronze axe I struggled to get acorns and birch seeds. Now with Iron Axes I get them half of the time. I have no opinion on this I just noticed that today
-Death skill penalty
I think it's not THAT bad. But I know a lot of people who play survival games are, more often than not, perfectionnists and completionnists. I think a great way to balance this would be that each time you die, you can cancel the penalty by doing something within a time limit (like reaching a level 15 comfort bonus within 5min after death, or drinking a hard-to-come-by potion)
I'm giving my 10 cents on what usually make people unhappy about the skill system
-Bow
On my current playthrough I'm at ~30 skill level, I honestly never felt impeded by draw time/stamina usage. Fair to me
-Running and Jumping
Honestly these two should be merged as "athletic" skill... when running home to haul wood or metals I find myself using the first boss buff and jumping around to level it. Jumping is such an important mechanic in this game yet you have too few occasions to level it legitimately
-Mining and Woodcutting
That one I noticed that the higher tier tool you use the more materials you get. With Bronze axe I struggled to get acorns and birch seeds. Now with Iron Axes I get them half of the time. I have no opinion on this I just noticed that today
-Death skill penalty
I think it's not THAT bad. But I know a lot of people who play survival games are, more often than not, perfectionnists and completionnists. I think a great way to balance this would be that each time you die, you can cancel the penalty by doing something within a time limit (like reaching a level 15 comfort bonus within 5min after death, or drinking a hard-to-come-by potion)
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Zep Tepi replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 10:54:02 am PDT
I mod out the skill loss on death. I think the naked walk of shame is punishment/challenge enough. With the skill loss, I'm encouraged to play too cautiously, as in never engaging with trolls, and being afraid to set foot into a new biome. I'm already cautious, but that doesn't help when I'm not sure how my armor and food stacks up against a new enemy. Worrying about my number-skill makes it harder to practice enough to improve my player-skill. Player-skill improves by taking risks and trying out things I'm not already good at.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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loppantorkel replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 10:56:05 am PDT
I like the skill system. Perhaps it can be improved like most things, but it's very much serviceable as it is. There's progression until a sort of skill plateau where you'll hover around unless you actively do something about it.
It's my belief that most of the people who are annoyed with the death skill penalty are those who expect the game to have a more linear progression, like ordinary rpgs. Maybe they focus too much on the skills? Some people never look at the skill points. I glance at them once and awhile but don't care about them. I care little if I die. I try to avoid it, but it's a part of the game, just like the penalties which, aside from the potential issues of getting your gear back, make you care just enough to try avoid unnecessary deaths, without making death a major issue.
As long as I easily (appropriately easily) can get by with very average skill stats, things are decently balanced imo.
It's my belief that most of the people who are annoyed with the death skill penalty are those who expect the game to have a more linear progression, like ordinary rpgs. Maybe they focus too much on the skills? Some people never look at the skill points. I glance at them once and awhile but don't care about them. I care little if I die. I try to avoid it, but it's a part of the game, just like the penalties which, aside from the potential issues of getting your gear back, make you care just enough to try avoid unnecessary deaths, without making death a major issue.
As long as I easily (appropriately easily) can get by with very average skill stats, things are decently balanced imo.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Banished replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:04:22 am PDT
Snip..
You'll never get to 100 or even above 80. Without cheating, using mods, macros.. etc.
ie Cheating. Pick your tube streamer of choice for how.
The bonus is slightly noticable at 50.. which is where the avg majority will be in skills. Overall the entire idea of rising skills via action in valheim is abit of a scam with the death penalty.
My skills with Wolf Armour. Maxed. ie pre plains. But everything else.
Clubs 30 Run 41 Bows 26 Jump 26 Wood Cutting 38 Pickaxe 38 Swords 41. All the other skills are below 10. Blocking is 12.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Grandaddypurple replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:10:33 am PDT
That's true, but remember that the game isn't finished. Currently we have access to 5 biomes, the goal is to have 8 or 9 in total. Roaming plains at skill levels around 100 would be like roaming the black forest with 50 (mutatis mutandis)Snip..
You'll never get to 100 or even above 80. Without cheating, using mods, macros.. etc.
ie Cheating. Pick your tube streamer of choice for how.
So speaking of reaching level 100 is moot, the point is the progressing curve, which is likely to be tweaked as new biomes/enemies are added
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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loppantorkel replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:11:01 am PDT
A scam....? Please elaborate how you're being scammed.Snip..
You'll never get to 100 or even above 80. Without cheating, using mods, macros.. etc.
ie Cheating. Pick your tube streamer of choice for how.
The bonus is slightly noticable at 50.. which is where the avg majority will be in skills. Overall the entire idea of rising skills via action in valheim is abit of a scam with the death penalty.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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0 likes
BGratz replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:32:37 am PDT
If you have all skills on 100 and die you loose weeks of progress
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Sentient Entropy replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:41:39 am PDT
If you have all skills on 100 and die you loose weeks of progress
Eh, it's not like dying un-kills bosses or un-builds structures. Skills are a definition of power, not a measure of progress.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Panfilo replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:53:31 am PDT
Thanks for the feedback. I do agree running and jumping could be merged; I mean the Eikythr buff impacts both of them anyway and it feels a little silly to struggle in a mountain biome just because you didn't mash the space bar enough times the previous two weeks of playing the game. Nice breakdown post
I'm giving my 10 cents on what usually make people unhappy about the skill system
-Bow
On my current playthrough I'm at ~30 skill level, I honestly never felt impeded by draw time/stamina usage. Fair to me
-Running and Jumping
Honestly these two should be merged as "athletic" skill... when running home to haul wood or metals I find myself using the first boss buff and jumping around to level it. Jumping is such an important mechanic in this game yet you have too few occasions to level it legitimately
-Mining and Woodcutting
That one I noticed that the higher tier tool you use the more materials you get. With Bronze axe I struggled to get acorns and birch seeds. Now with Iron Axes I get them half of the time. I have no opinion on this I just noticed that today
-Death skill penalty
I think it's not THAT bad. But I know a lot of people who play survival games are, more often than not, perfectionnists and completionnists. I think a great way to balance this would be that each time you die, you can cancel the penalty by doing something within a time limit (like reaching a level 15 comfort bonus within 5min after death, or drinking a hard-to-come-by potion)
In some ways tying this system to a flat number of actions is kind of limiting. Sure the Rested buff gives you 50% more bang for your buck. But they could give more incentives to play the game consistent with whatever the devs vision is. So like if you want to encourage players to explore, take some risks, experience the world of Valeim then the progression can afford to be a little more dynamic; getting bonus weapon skill xp on kills/boss kills means wading through trash mobs is less of a waste of time. Similarly bonus exp in areas that you recently explored encourages you to expand outside your comfort zone. Bonus modifiers in harder biomes would help as well. One of the reasons you get situations like "players maxing out bow skills by shooting a rock 5,000 times" is in part because there's no dynamic way to speed up the process, and it doesn't even scale with risk at all. This also makes the death penalty, while not that bad at low levels, aggrivating later on since it punishes you for being brave and proactive.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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BGratz replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 11:55:33 am PDT
The only progress is the better equipment and higher skills. Bosses and Bases are only tools to reach that. (thats at least how i see it)If you have all skills on 100 and die you loose weeks of progress
Eh, it's not like dying un-kills bosses or un-builds structures. Skills are a definition of power, not a measure of progress.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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Cooperal replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 12:53:27 pm PDT
I think it is mostly in a good place. The max level bonuses aren't phenomenal but that also means that the loss of skill points by death is not going to be a big game changer. To make them anything more than small bonuses would distract from the games main focuses.
Saying that, I do think that after you get past 90 or so, they could probably do with levelling out that skill loss curve, or the XP required per level. After that point the maths scales to become quite ludicrous.
Adjustments I would make to some of the skills though:
1. Remove the swim skill and give swimming all of the bonuses of running skill. Or keep swim skill but buff it 25% speed just like running skill. It's pretty bad in its current state. Swimming is already something that you are usually going to be trying to avoid at all costs; so unless you put yourself in a super rare situation where a -50% stamina usage bonus can make a life or death difference, you're still going to have to wait to dry off just as quickly as anyone else.
Though I prefer the former option, they could alternatively make swim skill reduce drowning damage, which is currently 5% of max health per tick.
2. The blocking skill is pretty insane. It takes a long time to level. As it scales by a percent of the blocking power of your shield, it is fairly useless with earlier stage shields and it risks becoming too useful on later stage shields. The matter of whether an enemy can be blocked or parried at all, is much more likely to determine the viability of a plan than the much higher bonuses received from weapon skills.
Nerf the percent bonus and replace some of it with a flat number determined by which size shield you're using. Reduce the grind. Give it something extra so that it still has some type of benefit against enemies that you outgear, such as increasing the parry stagger duration.
3. The sneak stamina usage reduction is massive but simultaneously quite useless, as you rarely ever need to stay sneaked for long periods of time. Nerf the stamina usage reduction and exchange it for faster sneak movement. While practicing your crouch-walking form would surely make it less tiresome, these vikings already have leg day covered mostly through other means. Learning to do it faster just makes sense.
Saying that, I do think that after you get past 90 or so, they could probably do with levelling out that skill loss curve, or the XP required per level. After that point the maths scales to become quite ludicrous.
Adjustments I would make to some of the skills though:
1. Remove the swim skill and give swimming all of the bonuses of running skill. Or keep swim skill but buff it 25% speed just like running skill. It's pretty bad in its current state. Swimming is already something that you are usually going to be trying to avoid at all costs; so unless you put yourself in a super rare situation where a -50% stamina usage bonus can make a life or death difference, you're still going to have to wait to dry off just as quickly as anyone else.
Though I prefer the former option, they could alternatively make swim skill reduce drowning damage, which is currently 5% of max health per tick.
2. The blocking skill is pretty insane. It takes a long time to level. As it scales by a percent of the blocking power of your shield, it is fairly useless with earlier stage shields and it risks becoming too useful on later stage shields. The matter of whether an enemy can be blocked or parried at all, is much more likely to determine the viability of a plan than the much higher bonuses received from weapon skills.
Nerf the percent bonus and replace some of it with a flat number determined by which size shield you're using. Reduce the grind. Give it something extra so that it still has some type of benefit against enemies that you outgear, such as increasing the parry stagger duration.
3. The sneak stamina usage reduction is massive but simultaneously quite useless, as you rarely ever need to stay sneaked for long periods of time. Nerf the stamina usage reduction and exchange it for faster sneak movement. While practicing your crouch-walking form would surely make it less tiresome, these vikings already have leg day covered mostly through other means. Learning to do it faster just makes sense.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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hazelrah replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 1:06:28 pm PDT
i don't really mind the jumping/running separation, but i'd like to see jumping include "landing" and perhaps get tied to dodge roll, i.e. jumping out of the way. agree that the frequency of jumping is far more important to survival than how high one jumps, but sometimes i've been saved by being able to get up high enough to not be hit.
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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QueenMadeleineAlexis replied to How do we feel about skill progression? September 24, 2021 @ 1:07:23 pm PDT
i really care about skill level at the 1st 40 levels. you should feel a difference. atm you dont.. atleast i do. my skill are trash due to farming mats in plains like a dummy i am
8:13 pm, September 24, 2021
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