Ingot weights are ridiculous
Well, OK, a lot of the weights in Valheim are ridiculous ... but necessary for game mechanics. Otherwise a 4x2x1 stone block, eight cubic meters of stone, would weigh roughly forty tons and ten players working together wouldn't be able to place one without a crane.
But ingot weights are particularly grating. It starts with being able to smelt a 10lb chunk of ore and get a 12lb ingot of metal out of it. (WTF? Physics doesn't work that way!) And then there's smelting 24lb of copper and 12lb of tin together to yield 12lb of bronze. (Do you EVEN MATH, bro?) And then we top it off by taking almost as much metal as you can carry at one time, to make a sword that is stated to weigh 0.8lb (the weight of a heavy knife).
I mean, yeah, OK, wastage. But 97% metal wastage? HOLY MOTHER OF INEFFICIENCY, BATMAN. What the heck did you do, cast an iron bar four feet long by eight inches square and then FILE IT DOWN to make your sword?!?
There's mods that fix the bronze issue in a fair way by simply making the basic recipe return three ingots instead of one, AS IT SHOULD. And we can fudge the weight issue of nails somewhat reasonably by saying that when the recipe says it makes "20 nails" from one ingot, what it *means* is 20 HANDFULS of nails. (We'll handwave for the moment the issue of why one ingot of metal makes 20 bronze nails but only 10 iron ones. We'll ... pretend the iron nails are bigger. Yeah. That's it. I can live with that.)
But there's just no way to argue that metal ingots in Valheim are not WAY TOO HEAVY. Because I'll tell you, if you can find a deposit of metal ore where ten pounds of ore yields TEN pounds of metal, let alone TWELVE, you haven't found ore, you have found *pure native metal*. In the real world, a metric ton of silver ore yields *grams* of silver; a metric ton of the richest copper ores can yield as much as twelve kilograms of copper. Iron ores are actually an almost fantastically rich outlier, taking about 1.6 tons of iron ore to make a ton of steel.
For game purposes it would be *REASONABLE* for Valheim to approximate an average by having 10lb of ore yield a single ingot of metal, but reducing the weight of that ingot to 1lb. Iron is not being smelted from ore, you're just remelting scrap iron, which should be MUCH less lossy; but to avoid weirdness with math and crafting, you should still get 1lb ingots, just more of them. Maybe 8 1lb ingots from 10lb of dirty, rusty scrap iron. But that's a separate issue. (We'll handwave the upgrading mechanism for tools, weapons etc for now. I SEE NUSSINK! NUSSINK!)
So we have a situation where metal ingots are ridiculously too heavy for any possible ore yield, while other items, swords for example, are too LIGHT. (A one-handed bronze or iron sword should weigh between 2 and 4 pounds. I have an arming sword with a 35½" blade and it weights 3.04lb. My CHEF'S KNIFE weights 0.7lb. So don't try to tell me a sword weighs 0.8.)
Anyway, where I'm going with this whole line of argument: Does anyone know of a Valheim mod that allows *changing the weights* of specific items? Really only *just a few items*, mostly the metal ingots should be reduced to 1lb each, though I'd increase the weights of a few of the metal weapons and tools as well.
But ingot weights are particularly grating. It starts with being able to smelt a 10lb chunk of ore and get a 12lb ingot of metal out of it. (WTF? Physics doesn't work that way!) And then there's smelting 24lb of copper and 12lb of tin together to yield 12lb of bronze. (Do you EVEN MATH, bro?) And then we top it off by taking almost as much metal as you can carry at one time, to make a sword that is stated to weigh 0.8lb (the weight of a heavy knife).
I mean, yeah, OK, wastage. But 97% metal wastage? HOLY MOTHER OF INEFFICIENCY, BATMAN. What the heck did you do, cast an iron bar four feet long by eight inches square and then FILE IT DOWN to make your sword?!?
There's mods that fix the bronze issue in a fair way by simply making the basic recipe return three ingots instead of one, AS IT SHOULD. And we can fudge the weight issue of nails somewhat reasonably by saying that when the recipe says it makes "20 nails" from one ingot, what it *means* is 20 HANDFULS of nails. (We'll handwave for the moment the issue of why one ingot of metal makes 20 bronze nails but only 10 iron ones. We'll ... pretend the iron nails are bigger. Yeah. That's it. I can live with that.)
But there's just no way to argue that metal ingots in Valheim are not WAY TOO HEAVY. Because I'll tell you, if you can find a deposit of metal ore where ten pounds of ore yields TEN pounds of metal, let alone TWELVE, you haven't found ore, you have found *pure native metal*. In the real world, a metric ton of silver ore yields *grams* of silver; a metric ton of the richest copper ores can yield as much as twelve kilograms of copper. Iron ores are actually an almost fantastically rich outlier, taking about 1.6 tons of iron ore to make a ton of steel.
For game purposes it would be *REASONABLE* for Valheim to approximate an average by having 10lb of ore yield a single ingot of metal, but reducing the weight of that ingot to 1lb. Iron is not being smelted from ore, you're just remelting scrap iron, which should be MUCH less lossy; but to avoid weirdness with math and crafting, you should still get 1lb ingots, just more of them. Maybe 8 1lb ingots from 10lb of dirty, rusty scrap iron. But that's a separate issue. (We'll handwave the upgrading mechanism for tools, weapons etc for now. I SEE NUSSINK! NUSSINK!)
So we have a situation where metal ingots are ridiculously too heavy for any possible ore yield, while other items, swords for example, are too LIGHT. (A one-handed bronze or iron sword should weigh between 2 and 4 pounds. I have an arming sword with a 35½" blade and it weights 3.04lb. My CHEF'S KNIFE weights 0.7lb. So don't try to tell me a sword weighs 0.8.)
Anyway, where I'm going with this whole line of argument: Does anyone know of a Valheim mod that allows *changing the weights* of specific items? Really only *just a few items*, mostly the metal ingots should be reduced to 1lb each, though I'd increase the weights of a few of the metal weapons and tools as well.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
Eradan replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 1:39:08 pm PST
And then there's smelting 24lb of copper and 12lb of tin together to yield 12lb of bronze. (Do you EVEN MATH, bro?)
Copper density: 8.96 g/cm3
Tin density: 7.265 g/cm3
Bronze density: 7.7 - 8.7 g/cm3
They might not do math, but they certainly do physics.
6:13 pm, February 2, 2023
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Alrekr Ironhand replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 1:16:08 pm PST
Changing the numbers to kilograms still leaves swords too light by a factor of half, doesn't change that you have a 99.6% material loss rate to forge a sword, and leaves you able to bare-ass naked on your first day in the game carry six hundred and sixty pounds before you break a sweat. It doesn't change the math.
Similarly if weights are meant to incorporate an encumbrance factor, then all large tools, weapons, armor pieces etc should have probably ten times the "weight" they do now. And it fails to explain how a metal ingot is somehow more encumbrance than the [doubtless much greater weight of] ore that it was smelted from. So that doesn't really solve anything either.
Similarly if weights are meant to incorporate an encumbrance factor, then all large tools, weapons, armor pieces etc should have probably ten times the "weight" they do now. And it fails to explain how a metal ingot is somehow more encumbrance than the [doubtless much greater weight of] ore that it was smelted from. So that doesn't really solve anything either.
12:13 am, January 30, 2023
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Rhapsody replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 1:20:58 pm PST
you have a 99.6% material loss rate to forge a sword
Perhaps that could be attributed to attempting to refine the purest metal possible or simple mistakes in the smelting and forging processes. It is still a game of course and you'll need hundreds of ingots for very meager returns, but personally I find that sort of thinking of some comfort there. :p
12:13 am, January 30, 2023
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Nyu replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 1:26:19 pm PST
imagine complaining about logic but beating up a deer that shoots thunder and talking to a giant crow with human feet.
12:13 am, January 30, 2023
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[CPC]Eradan replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 1:39:08 pm PST
And then there's smelting 24lb of copper and 12lb of tin together to yield 12lb of bronze. (Do you EVEN MATH, bro?)
Copper density: 8.96 g/cm3
Tin density: 7.265 g/cm3
Bronze density: 7.7 - 8.7 g/cm3
They might not do math, but they certainly do physics.
12:13 am, January 30, 2023
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Rhapsody replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:40:48 pm PST
Real life bog iron could be used to provide about 10-20% of its mass of workable material and the viking era processes were not particularly efficient, especially given the context of it in Valheim where the operation is mostly carried out by single persons at a time.
The weight of ingots could probably be shaved down without gameplay concerns, so long as stack limits are not changed.
The weight of ingots could probably be shaved down without gameplay concerns, so long as stack limits are not changed.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Alrekr Ironhand replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:42:06 pm PST
Yeah, bog iron, good data point there, 2lb per ingot would not be entirely beyond the bounds of reason.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Alrekr Ironhand replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:47:44 pm PST
I also note as pointed out above that some of the resulting metal gear, swords in particular, are implausibly LIGHT. It's as though the developers had never handled a real sword and, instead of looking up a reasonable real-world weight for one, just pulled a number outa their ass without sanity-checking it. My obsessive side wants to fix that too. :)
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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FissionChips replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:49:47 pm PST
Why are you assuming the values are in pounds? Try kilograms and see how your comparisons work.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Fzanco replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:55:44 pm PST
Your assuming the numbers for encumberance equal some sort of weight and weight alone. The numbers may be just an encompassing value of how much space, weight, awkward to carry, fragility etc. An item is using. Therefore kgs/lb is just something you assume and "the too heavy" argument is not valid and pontificating on it is mute until it can be confirmed what the number value for inventory stands for. Does that make sense?
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Jaasrg replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:14:54 pm PST
Subscribing to hear the "muh realism" crowd answer to this.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Nerevar replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:24:08 pm PST
without the weight any transport methods in this game became utterly meaningless. its simply a part of the gameplay loop clearly. youre supposed to use the boats to transport large amounts of ore. this adds some risk. if the boat sinks during the trip to homebase the ore is lost.
the altanative is to bring the workstations to the ore location and smelt and craft at site. this wont help with iron tough as its needed for building aswell. same for chopper albeit far less than overused iron.
if you try to mod that away you may aswell cheat directly with dev commands and safe your precious time so you can play the game less.
aside iron metals are mostly used to make gear. if you could teleport it or it had no weight getting gear would be stupid easy. game isnt supposed to be stupid easy.
the altanative is to bring the workstations to the ore location and smelt and craft at site. this wont help with iron tough as its needed for building aswell. same for chopper albeit far less than overused iron.
if you try to mod that away you may aswell cheat directly with dev commands and safe your precious time so you can play the game less.
aside iron metals are mostly used to make gear. if you could teleport it or it had no weight getting gear would be stupid easy. game isnt supposed to be stupid easy.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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loppantorkel replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:24:28 pm PST
How much would you want to reduce the inventory space and max carrying weight?
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Alrekr Ironhand replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:24:34 pm PST
Actually an afterthought on the scrap iron ... instead of messing with smelter yield it would be better to just reduce the weight of a single piece of scrap iron from 10lb to no more than about 1.5lb. If you're going mining for metal ores, you'd better expect to be hauling ore by the ton back to your smelter ... but there's no way you're hauling a ton of scrap iron out of a single tomb unless it's a tomb complex like the Valley of the Kings. Pulling maybe a hundred pounds of scrap iron out of a tomb suddenly requires a whole lot less willing suspension of disbelief, and maintains the easy "one 'ore' item yields one ingot from the smelter".
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Maelstrom replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:34:10 pm PST
It's a gameplay mechanic. Metal weighs a ton and can't go through portals so that boats and the cart have a purpose. It works but definitely takes some getting used to.
This is a game about logistics, despite the whole "brutal Viking survival game" thing.
This is a game about logistics, despite the whole "brutal Viking survival game" thing.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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Alrekr Ironhand replied to Ingot weights are ridiculous January 29, 2023 @ 12:40:27 pm PST
Oh sure, I get that it's gameplay mechanics. But there comes a point where your willing suspension of disbelief just curls up in the corner gibbering and flinching from things that aren't there. And one of those points is being able to smelt more metal out of ore than the weight of the ore itself.
Note I'm NOT suggesting reducing the weight of the ore. Ore is and SHOULD BE heavy.
Note I'm NOT suggesting reducing the weight of the ore. Ore is and SHOULD BE heavy.
9:13 pm, January 29, 2023
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