Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead?
This game is Early Access. The "early access social contract" is that the devs are releasing an incomplete game because they want the community to help guide the development of the game.
Let's think for a sec about the venues in which we know the developers can find feedback. For discussion sake, I'm arranging them in order of which I consider "you should listen to us more" down to "ignore these people because their motivations aren't necessarily promoting the enjoyment of the game."
- Here, on Steam's Valheim Discussion boards
- Their own Discord server
- The Valheim subreddit
- Other large fan-generated Valheim-centric forums (be they on Discord or a website, etc.)
- Corporate entity reviewers (websites that generate their ad revenue based on clickbait garbage, and basically just say what they think will generate the most money with the least amount of risk)
Okay, so that's where the devs are most likely to see any random thought someone has on the game.
That said, we have to assume that they know that we, as the community that is actively paying for and supporting the development of a game we clearly love otherwise we would just move on to something else, have asked for myriad fixes and changes. Now, we also have to take to heart that the developers have both every right and every obligation to themselves and their vision to stick to their intent and design when they feel like making a suggested change would deviate too far from what the game "is" in their intent, their minds, and their hearts.
With all of this in mind, let's look at two examples:
1. You cannot teleport metals.
2. There is no way to save a list of server credentials and easily log into frequently joined servers.
On the first:
The developers have stated firmly that to be able to simply hop through a portal with a pocket full of iron deviates from their intent and vision of the game. This is absolutely understandable and reasonable. They have a vision of gameplay that prioritizes exploration and some level of "smart" play. This is a perfect example of something that a modding community can step in a change, and that the end player can choose to implement via mod if they so choose.
Replacing all dragons with Thomas the Tank Engine isn't something anyone would have asked Bethesda to do, and to complain when they won't while there is a perfect modding community solution would be ridiculous. (I realize that some will tell me that these aren't analogous, and I admit a certain level of hyperbole in my example.)
On the second:
Now that the development team knows how many people set up, run, and play on dedicated, web-hosted server solutions, it is absolutely silly that the game doesn't have this built in yet, and that it was up to the modding community to step in and fix it. People have asked for this over and over, across many of the above listed venues. At most, the devs have said "yup, we know people want this, maybe we'll get to it one day." That's unacceptable from a team sitting on as much monetary resource as this team. If a modder can whip out an amazing and elegant solution in their spare, unpaid time, it's ridiculous that the dev team hasn't figured out how to hire, integrate, and pay a junior developer and assign this sort of task to them.
Okay, we've looked at two examples to form a mindset as to when a suggestion goes against the ideals of the game vs. when it is asking for basic missing functionality to be addressed.
But what about this latest "AI patch?"
Where did they get that suggestion?
Because I didn't see anyone asking for it. Certainly nobody asking "Could you please make the mobs walk past me and aggro my workbench until I walk up behind them and hit them once?" Nobody saying "boy I certainly wish that I couldn't even manage to build a simple fence without having to fend of seventeen attacks."
Because that's what we got. A crap update that nobody was asking for. Meanwhile, the game join menu is crap, wolves can't teleport with you, there's no way to "trash" items, and so on.
We do need to remember: there are deep and important things that the primary development team has to work on. The big stuff, the roadmap, the next biome, etc. But again, and I've spoken about it elsewhere, that's why you hire junior devs onto your team to help balance the workload of "low hanging fruit vs. the big idea."
So, to ask the question one last time:
From where are the team taking their feedback? Why would they release a crap patch nobody asked for while things as simple as a better server menu languish?
And hey Valheim team: we love your game. We love you guys. This is all asked from a place of wanting this game to thrive. :)
Now, in the words of Linda from Coffee Talk (anyone else old enough to get that, I heart your face): Discuss!
Let's think for a sec about the venues in which we know the developers can find feedback. For discussion sake, I'm arranging them in order of which I consider "you should listen to us more" down to "ignore these people because their motivations aren't necessarily promoting the enjoyment of the game."
- Here, on Steam's Valheim Discussion boards
- Their own Discord server
- The Valheim subreddit
- Other large fan-generated Valheim-centric forums (be they on Discord or a website, etc.)
- Corporate entity reviewers (websites that generate their ad revenue based on clickbait garbage, and basically just say what they think will generate the most money with the least amount of risk)
Okay, so that's where the devs are most likely to see any random thought someone has on the game.
That said, we have to assume that they know that we, as the community that is actively paying for and supporting the development of a game we clearly love otherwise we would just move on to something else, have asked for myriad fixes and changes. Now, we also have to take to heart that the developers have both every right and every obligation to themselves and their vision to stick to their intent and design when they feel like making a suggested change would deviate too far from what the game "is" in their intent, their minds, and their hearts.
With all of this in mind, let's look at two examples:
1. You cannot teleport metals.
2. There is no way to save a list of server credentials and easily log into frequently joined servers.
On the first:
The developers have stated firmly that to be able to simply hop through a portal with a pocket full of iron deviates from their intent and vision of the game. This is absolutely understandable and reasonable. They have a vision of gameplay that prioritizes exploration and some level of "smart" play. This is a perfect example of something that a modding community can step in a change, and that the end player can choose to implement via mod if they so choose.
Replacing all dragons with Thomas the Tank Engine isn't something anyone would have asked Bethesda to do, and to complain when they won't while there is a perfect modding community solution would be ridiculous. (I realize that some will tell me that these aren't analogous, and I admit a certain level of hyperbole in my example.)
On the second:
Now that the development team knows how many people set up, run, and play on dedicated, web-hosted server solutions, it is absolutely silly that the game doesn't have this built in yet, and that it was up to the modding community to step in and fix it. People have asked for this over and over, across many of the above listed venues. At most, the devs have said "yup, we know people want this, maybe we'll get to it one day." That's unacceptable from a team sitting on as much monetary resource as this team. If a modder can whip out an amazing and elegant solution in their spare, unpaid time, it's ridiculous that the dev team hasn't figured out how to hire, integrate, and pay a junior developer and assign this sort of task to them.
Okay, we've looked at two examples to form a mindset as to when a suggestion goes against the ideals of the game vs. when it is asking for basic missing functionality to be addressed.
But what about this latest "AI patch?"
Where did they get that suggestion?
Because I didn't see anyone asking for it. Certainly nobody asking "Could you please make the mobs walk past me and aggro my workbench until I walk up behind them and hit them once?" Nobody saying "boy I certainly wish that I couldn't even manage to build a simple fence without having to fend of seventeen attacks."
Because that's what we got. A crap update that nobody was asking for. Meanwhile, the game join menu is crap, wolves can't teleport with you, there's no way to "trash" items, and so on.
We do need to remember: there are deep and important things that the primary development team has to work on. The big stuff, the roadmap, the next biome, etc. But again, and I've spoken about it elsewhere, that's why you hire junior devs onto your team to help balance the workload of "low hanging fruit vs. the big idea."
So, to ask the question one last time:
From where are the team taking their feedback? Why would they release a crap patch nobody asked for while things as simple as a better server menu languish?
And hey Valheim team: we love your game. We love you guys. This is all asked from a place of wanting this game to thrive. :)
Now, in the words of Linda from Coffee Talk (anyone else old enough to get that, I heart your face): Discuss!
5:13 pm, June 25, 2021
Crunchy[Daz] replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 10:17:13 am PDT
Did you really just say they should listen to the Steam Forums over their official Discord?
You seem to have a very skewed vision of what Early Access is. Its not to get the community to help shape the game, its to get funding right away instead of building a game for 5 years and then recouping money through sales. Thats why its almost always exclusively small or indie dev teams who do it.
You seem to think that they should only be doing what the community tells them...no. Its their game, they will build it the way and in the order they want to. The modern gamer needs to stop being so entitled.
You can already teleport ores without any mods and it takes like 30 seconds to do.
Oh and while we're on the topic of Early Access let explain something else people never seem to understand about it. Early Access does not speed up development of a game, it slows it down and extends it years beyond a normal dev cycle.
You seem to have a very skewed vision of what Early Access is. Its not to get the community to help shape the game, its to get funding right away instead of building a game for 5 years and then recouping money through sales. Thats why its almost always exclusively small or indie dev teams who do it.
You seem to think that they should only be doing what the community tells them...no. Its their game, they will build it the way and in the order they want to. The modern gamer needs to stop being so entitled.
You can already teleport ores without any mods and it takes like 30 seconds to do.
Oh and while we're on the topic of Early Access let explain something else people never seem to understand about it. Early Access does not speed up development of a game, it slows it down and extends it years beyond a normal dev cycle.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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grungydan replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 10:23:54 am PDT
You seem to be reading a lot into my post that I didn't say, and missing some of what I did say.
I'm aware that it's primarily a fundraising issue, but in the EA preamble is explicitly says that it is also to get input from those payments ng and playing early access.
I also very explicitly said that no, they should of course not simply so what the community asks. I invite you to read what I wrote again.
As to who they should listen to, that's part of what I'm asking. Who should they listen to, and who are they listening to? And in concert with those questions, where are they getting bad ideas like "patch the AI to make it worse?"
I'm aware that it's primarily a fundraising issue, but in the EA preamble is explicitly says that it is also to get input from those payments ng and playing early access.
I also very explicitly said that no, they should of course not simply so what the community asks. I invite you to read what I wrote again.
As to who they should listen to, that's part of what I'm asking. Who should they listen to, and who are they listening to? And in concert with those questions, where are they getting bad ideas like "patch the AI to make it worse?"
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Avanar replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 10:53:50 am PDT
I wanted to answer differently but your funny rant in the last part of your post made me remind you that you yourself said.. Devs do what they intended with v the game.
If they intended that npc attack primarily work benches and structures then you should stick to your own suggestion and live with it. That's just what the devs intended. Even if it's something you don't like
If they intended that npc attack primarily work benches and structures then you should stick to your own suggestion and live with it. That's just what the devs intended. Even if it's something you don't like
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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grapplehoeker replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 10:57:29 am PDT
Dear OP,
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best
And...
Always look on the bright side of life
Always look on the light side of life
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse
When you're chewing on life's gristle
Don't grumble, give a whistle
And this'll help things turn out for the best
And...
Always look on the bright side of life
Always look on the light side of life
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Washell replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:01:00 am PDT
as the community that is actively paying for
I don't consider myself actively paying. I would consider myself that if it was a Patreon where I was subscribed for x bucks a month. I paid once, for the product in the state that it was at that time. Knowing that it may or may not be developed further. It also explicitly says *that* in the EA preamble. Something you skipped, perhaps intentionally because it doesn't fit your talking points. but in the EA preamble is explicitly says
The way you (and many others) are thinking about it will result in a feeling of entitlement, expectations and inevitably, gross disappointment. I however, have had my fill of Valheim, my money's worth, and anything they improve and add now is just cherries on the top.
Also, listening to the community does not equal exclusively doing what the community dictates.
There's really no other way to interpret the following than like that, your writing let you down. I also very explicitly said that no, they should of course not simply so what the community asks. I invite you to read what I wrote again.
"Nobody (in the community) asked for it, so they shouldn't have done it" is where that phrasing leads. But what about this latest "AI patch?"
Where did they get that suggestion?
Because I didn't see anyone asking for it.
In closing, they made a great game. I sincerely hope they just let the community inspire them. Because letting the community guide them leads to design by committee, which has never resulted in anything but blandness.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Icecreammafia replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:05:58 am PDT
I agree;
Unfortunately the relationship between customer and product maker has drastically shifted in the video-game industry in such a way that customers aren't treated as such, but rather are treated as 'fans'.
So when we attempt to criticize or say something controversial to what we paid for, it's censored so that others' may get a cleaner, brighter image of the product. (A deceit)
We see that on this forum in the way of bans/thread deletions/etc.
Making money is more important on Steam than actual accountability or "integrity".
I do wish in the future though we can go back to the contract you mentioned and we as customers agreed to with our money without being 'moderated' for having an opinion about the product we paid for. Or the team completely disregarding why they even got success in the first place..
Us
Unfortunately the relationship between customer and product maker has drastically shifted in the video-game industry in such a way that customers aren't treated as such, but rather are treated as 'fans'.
So when we attempt to criticize or say something controversial to what we paid for, it's censored so that others' may get a cleaner, brighter image of the product. (A deceit)
We see that on this forum in the way of bans/thread deletions/etc.
Making money is more important on Steam than actual accountability or "integrity".
I do wish in the future though we can go back to the contract you mentioned and we as customers agreed to with our money without being 'moderated' for having an opinion about the product we paid for. Or the team completely disregarding why they even got success in the first place..
Us
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Sunny replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:06:19 am PDT
They're focusing on bugfixes instead of content because they weren't anticipating a million players when they released. That million players found LOTS of bugs, and most of those bugs really need to be fixed.
There are very few things in life where you don't have to build the foundation first. They're working on the foundation. Once they've got that stable again, then the content goes in. It's not flashy, it's not pretty, it's not what YOU PERSONALLY want, but it is absolutely necessary.
The AI wasn't behaving like they wanted it to, as evidenced by all the people doing the things. They saw it wasn't doing what they wanted, and so they're working on fixing it. The AI is absolutely a core foundation piece onto which other things are placed. If it's broken, you do not want to hang things off of it until it's been fixed.
Early in the EA process is ABSOLUTELY where you want them working on ensuring the AI is up to snuff, whether or not people "asked for it". Skipping these fixes would be like skipping fixing a problem with the procedural worldgen (not that there is one that I know of). It's a core piece of the game.
There are very few things in life where you don't have to build the foundation first. They're working on the foundation. Once they've got that stable again, then the content goes in. It's not flashy, it's not pretty, it's not what YOU PERSONALLY want, but it is absolutely necessary.
The AI wasn't behaving like they wanted it to, as evidenced by all the people doing the things. They saw it wasn't doing what they wanted, and so they're working on fixing it. The AI is absolutely a core foundation piece onto which other things are placed. If it's broken, you do not want to hang things off of it until it's been fixed.
Early in the EA process is ABSOLUTELY where you want them working on ensuring the AI is up to snuff, whether or not people "asked for it". Skipping these fixes would be like skipping fixing a problem with the procedural worldgen (not that there is one that I know of). It's a core piece of the game.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Icecreammafia replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:09:47 am PDT
There are 21k concurrent players 24/7 my guy. They're focusing on bugfixes instead of content because they weren't anticipating a million players when they released. That million players found LOTS of bugs, and most of those bugs really need to be fixed.
There are very few things in life where you don't have to build the foundation first. They're working on the foundation. Once they've got that stable again, then the content goes in. It's not flashy, it's not pretty, it's not what YOU PERSONALLY want, but it is absolutely necessary.
More people play Ark
Not sure where the 'Millions of players' is a viable excuse at this point..
Maybe at release, but not 4 months later.
Sorry
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Sunny replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:12:36 am PDT
There are 21k concurrent players 24/7 my guy.
More people play Ark
Not sure where the 'Millions of players' is a viable excuse at this point..
Maybe at release, but not 4 months later.
Sorry
Huh? Yeah, most of the people who bought it played it, and a LOT of those people reported bugs. They weren't anticipating the flood of bugs people found, so attention had to go to fixing them. It's not an excuse, it's just the reality of the industry. Putting new content on top of bugs you know about just creates more problems down the line.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Altimely replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:13:58 am PDT
So when we attempt to criticize or say something controversial to what we paid for, it's censored
Criticism isn't censored. Unconstructive rage and trolling is moderated as it should be. The two aren't the same.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Plok! replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:16:13 am PDT
Combat system is very basic and very boring in it's current state, making the creatures annoying does not make the game "challenging". It makes it frustrating experience and not fun to play at all. Currently all there is to this game is building and grinding materials (unless you use the console). So if the main intention was to stop the players from playing the game without using cheats to avoid frustration well then they succeded. There is nothing challenging or fun being swarmed by mobs that are pretty easy to kill and offer no reward for doing so while at the same time they can take away hours of hard work.
I seriously do not expect this game to improve anymore, if you ask me it should have been left as is (and still somewhat fun) instead of introducing those weird "fixes".
I seriously do not expect this game to improve anymore, if you ask me it should have been left as is (and still somewhat fun) instead of introducing those weird "fixes".
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Avanar replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:19:52 am PDT
They're focusing on bugfixes instead of content because they weren't anticipating a million players when they released. That million players found LOTS of bugs, and most of those bugs really need to be fixed.
There are very few things in life where you don't have to build the foundation first. They're working on the foundation. Once they've got that stable again, then the content goes in. It's not flashy, it's not pretty, it's not what YOU PERSONALLY want, but it is absolutely necessary.
It's necessary because they didn't release the game in a good state. Or better they had the focus to appeal to as many players as possible and didn't mind if they deliver a sustainable made product at all.
Or maybe they didn't knew it better, which isn't really any better.
They completely exaggerated what they could do and want to do and now try to explain it away with.. Necessary bug fixes.
Ah well, i just found the OP funny. Going the developers way is great, as long as its my way ad well, otherwise I'll do a post on steam asking where they get their stupid ideas
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Sunny replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:21:57 am PDT
It's necessary because they didn't release the game in a good state.
...
They completely exaggerated what they could do and want to do and now try to explain it away with.. Necessary bug fixes.
Do...you know what Early Access is?
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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Icecreammafia replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 11:25:09 am PDT
I don't think there is any reason at all to patronize someone.It's necessary because they didn't release the game in a good state.
...
They completely exaggerated what they could do and want to do and now try to explain it away with.. Necessary bug fixes.
Do...you know what Early Access is?
As the OP stated; Early Access is in-affect an agreement between customer and Developer.
In no way should it be expected that the game go back into the "oven of development".
The assumed foundation is built; the customer expects that the game is 60-75% finished when he/she/it agrees to purchase and at this point needs a good variety of sauces and garnish to finish the meal off.
8:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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GunsForBucks replied to Let's ask together: From where are the Devs really taking their lead? June 25, 2021 @ 10:07:44 am PDT
I think the AI patch comes from people complaining the game is too easy.
I personally didn't and think the patch didn't help anything but it is a work in progress and still in line with the vision of the project as they see it.
The server thing is a QOL issue and honestly should have less priority than a game play issue. They may just not have a decent programmer for network issues like this so it just gets put off till "later". We just don't know. But considering the outcry from some for more "content" I don't see them doing anything about the server issues any time soon... it is something that still works as it should. It isn't broken.
I personally didn't and think the patch didn't help anything but it is a work in progress and still in line with the vision of the project as they see it.
The server thing is a QOL issue and honestly should have less priority than a game play issue. They may just not have a decent programmer for network issues like this so it just gets put off till "later". We just don't know. But considering the outcry from some for more "content" I don't see them doing anything about the server issues any time soon... it is something that still works as it should. It isn't broken.
5:13 pm, June 25, 2021
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