Originally posted by "Marksman" Max:

Originally posted by GunsForBucks:

Second is usage. If they basically doubled the output then they would likely double the cost of building in bronze.

Even near-fully mining a Copper rock might net you 40 Copper Ore, which is barely enough to do anything since that's only 20 Bronze.

You need 25 Bronze to make a full armor set and the shield, and each weapon is 8 Bronze, and you're also forced to get five Bronze for the Cultivator, eight Bronze for the Axe, and five more Bronze to have enough nails for two carts and a Karve. On most of my playthroughs nowadays, those three items are the only items I bother making.

I don't really understand how people are walking away from copper nodes with 40 copper. I never really have an issue with collecting the stuff, it's not particularly difficult to locate and there aren't too great of threats nearby. Perhaps I have been lucky with the drop rate but I usually do 3 runs of 20ish copper per node when I'm mining early game.

Also, nobody is forcing you to make 2 carts... If anything, the only items you're really forced to make are the pickaxe, axe, cultivator, karve, and at least one fermenter. (aside from the forge and the respective upgrades anyways.) I've seen many people use Troll armor through the swamp and beyond. Your axe doubles as your weapon. Alternatively you could use an Abyssal Razor if you're going the troll hide route.

Bronze Alloy should remain the same, but crafting recipes requiring Bronze should cost 1-3 Bronze less than they do now.

Originally posted by GSK:

Also, nobody is forcing you to make 2 carts...

Well, it's nice to have a Cart and Karve at the same time, but you can't really make ten Bronze Nails lmao, so I just stick with 100 nails total so I can have two Carts and a Karve.

I've seen many people use Troll armor through the swamp and beyond.

Oh, Troll Armor makes Bronze Armor pretty obsolete, and Root Armor makes Bronze Armor completely worthless. Same armor value when fully-maxed, provides Pierce and Poison resistance, and only a 4% movement speed reduction makes it insanely powerful for the Swamps. Honestly, there's not even much of a reason to make Iron Armor at that point.

Sure, it makes you weak to fire, but you're always Wet in the Swamps (which overrides the Fire debuff) and Surtlings are complete pushovers anyway. Fire Weakness only becomes a problem in the Plains, and if you're using Root Armor in the Plains, you're probably an archer, so being weak to fire doesn't mean much since torch Fulings won't make it to you alive lmao.

Alternatively you could use an Abyssal Razor if you're going the troll hide route.

Well, if you're going the Bow route, you just use the Finewood Bow (which doesn't require any metals), skip the Huntsman Bow (it's a complete waste of time and resources), and go straight for Draugr Fang which is completely busted at high Archery levels.

For Bronze weapons, the only one really worth making is the Atgeir, for sure. A Level 1 Bronze Mace won't hurt either, but a Level 3-4 Club could likely also suffice for Blobs until you can get an Iron Mace to beat up Bonemass with.

Originally posted by Gerustroncio:

Shouldn't the production of alloys (like bronze for instance) produce at least 2x?

That's how alloys work, if I'm adding 2 bars or copper + 1 bar of tin, I should get a result of 3 bars of bronze, because that's the amount of material that was put in... it doesn't magically condenses and fuses into just enough material for 1 bar.

I'd settle for 2x, but getting a single bar of bronze is kinda silly

This is where I'd say I'd really hate to burst your bubble... but I'd be lying. Long story very stort... In the real world alloys don't produce exact 1:1 ratios in many cases. So the fact a video game might deviate from your perception makes sense in both cases.
Fun fact: You can mod the game to work exactly the way you want, so feel free to change whatever you'd like.

Originally posted by GunsForBucks:

Second is usage. If they basically doubled the output then they would likely double the cost of building in bronze.

Bronze equipment is already disgustingly expensive and overpriced.

20 Iron might sound like a lot for a Sword, but a Bronze Sword technically requires more ingots since you need 16 Copper and 8 Tin ingots. Tin is easy to get, but Copper is deadass the hardest metal to acquire in the entire game. Even near-fully mining a Copper rock might net you 40 Copper Ore, which is barely enough to do anything since that's only 20 Bronze.

You need 25 Bronze to make a full armor set and the shield, and each weapon is 8 Bronze, and you're also forced to get five Bronze for the Cultivator, eight Bronze for the Axe, and five more Bronze to have enough nails for two carts and a Karve. On most of my playthroughs nowadays, those three items are the only items I bother making.

♥♥♥♥, I've found Swamp Crypts that yielded over 100 iron scrap. That's enough metal for a full armor set, a shield and a weapon. And don't even get me starting on how laughably easy it is to acquire a large amount of Silver. Transporting it is the only tricky part.

Considering how much easier it is to get the mid- to end-game ores, I think getting two Bronze ingots instead of one from combining three ingots is fantastic.

Originally posted by magilla666:

Originally posted by Gerustroncio:

Shouldn't the production of alloys (like bronze for instance) produce at least 2x?

That's how alloys work, if I'm adding 2 bars or copper + 1 bar of tin, I should get a result of 3 bars of bronze, because that's the amount of material that was put in... it doesn't magically condenses and fuses into just enough material for 1 bar.

I'd settle for 2x, but getting a single bar of bronze is kinda silly

Think of it as using a really primitive, inefficient smelter.

This is how I always justify the discrepancy , personally.

Originally posted by NatureValley:

Originally posted by Wiike:

repairing bronze pickaxe require a smithing stand, which is going to be a pain in the ass to find at digging sites

Portals.

it would be hugly useful if you could at least unlock specific metals through portals by killing that zones boss. Kill Elder, you can take copper/tin/bronze ingots through them. Kill bone mass, Iron ingots, copper/tin ore. Kill Moder, iron scraps, etc.

But the devs ahve already made it quite clear that moving metals via portal would break the games progression and its not going to happen, ever.

At least not officially.

Thankfully I found a mod that lets me move metals via portals and the rules above are the limits I've set for myself. Works out great, by the time I can move copper/tin ingots those resources are only mostly being used for only for crafting bench upgrades and would be a PITA grind to mine those mats localy for my operations bases/portal hubs I build around the map. And I still have to smelt the ores at the mining site early on.

In its current state, the game is a time sink. You grind to compensate for lack of content. Thus it takes 30 pounds of iron to make a 3 pound sword. And when making alloys 2+1=1 instead of 3. There are mods to edit crafting recipes or material drop rates if you want to make the game less grindy.

Originally posted by NatureValley:

Originally posted by Wiike:

repairing bronze pickaxe require a smithing stand, which is going to be a pain in the ass to find at digging sites

Portals.

Agreed, portals would solve this, but to the point, in early game mining, I preferred to use the antler pickaxe because I could just build a bench on site to repair it as needed.

repairing bronze pickaxe require a smithing stand, which is going to be a pain in the ass to find at digging sites

Originally posted by Wiike:

repairing bronze pickaxe require a smithing stand, which is going to be a pain in the ass to find at digging sites

Portals.

Originally posted by GunsForBucks:

Perhaps if you were just looking at the real world logic of it and ignored the gameplay loop.

Changing that would basically effect game balance and other things would need to change also.

First is skill development. You only get pickax skill when using the pickax on rock or ore or tree stumps or something... you don't get it for digging in dirt. Basically they would need to adjust the skill level development to offset the changes to needing to mine less ore.

Second is usage. If they basically doubled the output then they would likely double the cost of building in bronze. You wouldn't magically get double the output and make the game super easy they would have to adjust something.

Third is time. Once you hit black forest level you get a lot more tasks to do. Farming and taming become a thing... taking time to develop those things while you mine etc makes sense also in terms of progression.

Don't get me wrong, it is kind of time consuming and feels a bit slower paced .. but having that time to develop your skills before entering the swamp is also good. Many people post about the swamp being a big increase in difficulty already.

I wouldn't mind it being easier myself mining for bronze, but if I ask myself if that would be good for the gameplay in general I would have to say no.

yeah, makes sense, it's just that mining copper is a real pain, and also seems to be a finite resource? (even though of course I'm sure in any given world there are plenty of sources)

Is it worth it to make a bronze pickaxe? it takes 10 freaking bars of bronze...

Originally posted by magilla666:

Think of it as using a really primitive, inefficient smelter.

Actually that would make sense, very inefficient process and such, a lot of loss.

Originally posted by Gerustroncio:

Is it worth it to make a bronze pickaxe? it takes 10 freaking bars of bronze...

Yes, and would recommend upgrading it to level 2.
It'll then take 4 hits with the bronze pickaxe to mine copper, where it takes 8 hits with the antlers, and you get more durability

Originally posted by Sgt Sticks:

Originally posted by Gerustroncio:

Is it worth it to make a bronze pickaxe? it takes 10 freaking bars of bronze...

Yes, and would recommend upgrading it to level 2.
It'll then take 4 hits with the bronze pickaxe to mine copper, where it takes 8 hits with the antlers, and you get more durability

yeah sounds good, imma do that, i was wary of it since the durability is just slightly higher and I didn't know whether or not it mined faster

thx

Perhaps if you were just looking at the real world logic of it and ignored the gameplay loop.

Changing that would basically effect game balance and other things would need to change also.

First is skill development. You only get pickax skill when using the pickax on rock or ore or tree stumps or something... you don't get it for digging in dirt. Basically they would need to adjust the skill level development to offset the changes to needing to mine less ore.

Second is usage. If they basically doubled the output then they would likely double the cost of building in bronze. You wouldn't magically get double the output and make the game super easy they would have to adjust something.

Third is time. Once you hit black forest level you get a lot more tasks to do. Farming and taming become a thing... taking time to develop those things while you mine etc makes sense also in terms of progression.

Don't get me wrong, it is kind of time consuming and feels a bit slower paced .. but having that time to develop your skills before entering the swamp is also good. Many people post about the swamp being a big increase in difficulty already.

I wouldn't mind it being easier myself mining for bronze, but if I ask myself if that would be good for the gameplay in general I would have to say no.

Originally posted by Gerustroncio:

Shouldn't the production of alloys (like bronze for instance) produce at least 2x?

That's how alloys work, if I'm adding 2 bars or copper + 1 bar of tin, I should get a result of 3 bars of bronze, because that's the amount of material that was put in... it doesn't magically condenses and fuses into just enough material for 1 bar.

I'd settle for 2x, but getting a single bar of bronze is kinda silly

Think of it as using a really primitive, inefficient smelter.