Was about to fire up the game later today after seeing it got the update but after doing the reading on their official forums and here, looks like I'm going to have to go the mod route to make sure I still enjoy the damn game. Sounds like the Devs really are dead-set on their hardcore vision; maybe they should consider having some kind of sliders when you first fire up the game - pre Hearth + Home and post Hearth + Home.

Originally posted by Outlaw:

I pray to god someone can reverse this "update" and make food/combat right again.

Get Valheim+ and set it up. All you need is there.

Having config files just in the game to adjust basic difficulty / accessibility / fun would simplify a lot of it and are something most devs overlook. That's actually all some of the mods do, and it's great (custom weapon stats / custom armor stats, etc.)

It kind of feels like the designers don't understand why a big chunk of players liked the game. It's been... pretty static for 7 months now, and tons of people still loved it and were joining up new to enjoy it. The first "big" change they make turns off a massive chunk of the player population from it. There is unfortunately a pretty big history of EA games misunderstanding what their players enjoy and wanted and ending up shooting themselves in the foot.

The only people really defending the new food system and stamina drains seem to be the "git gud" types which are always a vocal group, so it's unclear exactly how many it appeals to, but the ratio of negative:positive reviews spiked massively over the past two days even with WAY more positive reviews pouring in than usual (positive-review bombing maybe to try and counteract negatively, or just people excited for a first real patch).

While I'm a bit put off by the lack of actual content after such a huge stretch (and the hype the team built up, in the interview they even offhand mentioned Mistlands content), I'm disappointed in the actual balance changes. The system could have been untouched and been fine, maybe not perfect but fine. It's now significantly worse, more tedious, less open for strategies and variety, etc. It's basically now "do it this way or fail even more than you would doing it the correct way". Because now there's a "correct" way which there wasn't before. In this kind of game, you don't want to force people to play a certain way, and you certainly don't want to add a bunch of requirements to even doing that when you do (extra ingredients, materials, cooking steps, etc.)

Yeah, these events point pretty clearly towards different game modes being the good idea they generally are for sandbox games. The command line server especially could really use a bunch of admin commands and settings.

Those food stats wouldn't have been any kind of issue if players could easily scale down the monsters a little to match.

Originally posted by k3rr3k:

Originally posted by Mharr:

So there's a generalised rebellion against having to choose between combat stats and being able to actually move, in a game that already has a huge modding community.

Seems like there's significant danger of a split there, with mods to recover pre-h&h balance becoming the 'real' version for most and IG working at cross purposes to their players. Best ways to avoid this?

Modders are already adding 10x more content in 1/10th the time. We will be relying on modders for the full game experience rather than the devs at this point.

I will quickly debunk this one again

Modders use the games framework and add nothing new of actual value apart from build mods. Monstermash is a great example of this, using nothing but slightly modified (if at all) unity assets for models and then just using the same enemy framework that already exists in the game. It even uses the same animations. Werewolf attacks the same way any other mob does in the game, no unique animations, nothing. This doesnt add more, this adds the same enemy type with more health and damage. Thats not content, thats bloatware.

The most complex mod that exists is Valheim + and thats about it.

And no, I wont count overhauls as I dont count them for 7D2D either when it isnt done in the spirit of the game and adds things that the game never intended to add itself (like a magic system for instance).

Most mods, sure, but Valheim already has a few things that are absolutely expansions on the existing mechanics. The modular raft mod, a drivable truck, Diablo style enchanted loot. It probably helps a lot that the game's built on a well understood third party engine.

Originally posted by Mharr:

Most mods, sure, but Valheim already has a few things that are absolutely expansions on the existing engine. The modular raft mod, a drivable truck, Diablo style enchanted loot. It probably helps a lot that the game's built on a well understood third party engine.

Modular Raft? Ok I give you that one

Drivable truck? In a medieval fantasy? No. Funny but no.

Diablo Style enchanted loot? 50/50. Some like it, I dont get why it exists. Its just busy work to make you feel like the grinding means something. Borderlands 2 has the same thing but made a parody of it by literally going over the top on purpose. You will NEVER keep your gun the same way as you will immediately throw away a worse weapon as soon as you get the same one with better stats.

Originally posted by Black Puppet:

Originally posted by k3rr3k:

Modders are already adding 10x more content in 1/10th the time. We will be relying on modders for the full game experience rather than the devs at this point.

I will quickly debunk this one again

Modders use the games framework and add nothing new of actual value apart from build mods. Monstermash is a great example of this, using nothing but slightly modified (if at all) unity assets for models and then just using the same enemy framework that already exists in the game. It even uses the same animations. Werewolf attacks the same way any other mob does in the game, no unique animations, nothing. This doesnt add more, this adds the same enemy type with more health and damage. Thats not content, thats bloatware.

The most complex mod that exists is Valheim + and thats about it.

And no, I wont count overhauls as I dont count them for 7D2D either when it isnt done in the spirit of the game and adds things that the game never intended to add itself (like a magic system for instance).

You are not debunking anything. You should try being open to new information. It will help you grow and not stagnate as a shill. I still like Valheim, modders are still creating more than the devs, and you will still fail to come to that realisation.

Modders have the advantage of numbers and no responsibility, if they break the game another mod can fix it or people just don't use that mod, no biggie. IG have paying customers and a consistent, stable game world to build. Different constraints.

Still, 'Mods add nothing new of value' is a pretty weak argument if 'of value' just means 'that I personally like'.

Originally posted by k3rr3k:

Originally posted by Black Puppet:

I will quickly debunk this one again

Modders use the games framework and add nothing new of actual value apart from build mods. Monstermash is a great example of this, using nothing but slightly modified (if at all) unity assets for models and then just using the same enemy framework that already exists in the game. It even uses the same animations. Werewolf attacks the same way any other mob does in the game, no unique animations, nothing. This doesnt add more, this adds the same enemy type with more health and damage. Thats not content, thats bloatware.

The most complex mod that exists is Valheim + and thats about it.

And no, I wont count overhauls as I dont count them for 7D2D either when it isnt done in the spirit of the game and adds things that the game never intended to add itself (like a magic system for instance).

You are not debunking anything. You should try being open to new information. It will help you grow and not stagnate as a shill. I still like Valheim, modders are still creating more than the devs, and you will still fail to come to that realisation.

Dude, this has nothing to do with "new information" or how you label it being a "shill". You still ignore the fact that the reason why they push out more stuff than the devs is because they are working with the framework already present AND dont have to deal with any of the stuff the devs have to deal with already. They dont have to bugfix the game, they dont have to balance the game. They can just add stuff willy nilly and what have ye.

Show me the most complex mod that actually adds things to valheim that is done in the spirit of the game. Please show it to me. You cant, cause a mod like that doesnt exist. Cause no modder knows the vision of the game. They know what Iron Gate wants to do overall and have the framework to work with. Thats it.

Content, ACTUAL content is what Iron gate gives us. Modders add MODDED content that you see online and wanna play with. Nothing official, nothing that will stay supported for sure. Its a mod. And a modder can easily decide to jump off at any point in time similar to an early access developer (in the past like with many projects from different studios).

Heck, Monstermash is once again a good example for this cause its been deleted. Long before the update even came out. No idea why but here is a mod that added so called content GONE. No support, no bugfixing anymore past the current update. ITS GONE.

You are putting more weight on mods than the actual game, which will kick you in the behind more than you can think in the future. You can do that with a finished game, not with a game in development.

Originally posted by Mharr:

Modders have the advantage of numbers and no responsibility, if they break the game another mod can fix it or people just don't use that mod, no biggie. IG have paying customers and a consistent, stable game world to build. Different constraints.

Still, 'Mods add nothing new of value' is a pretty weak argument if 'of value' just means 'that I personally like'.

I am saying "nothing of value" based on the "in the vision of the game" argument.

Could have probably worded that a lot better now in hindsight.

I pray to god someone can reverse this "update" and make food/combat right again.

Originally posted by Mharr:

So there's a generalised rebellion against having to choose between combat stats and being able to actually move, in a game that already has a huge modding community.

Seems like there's significant danger of a split there, with mods to recover pre-h&h balance becoming the 'real' version for most and IG working at cross purposes to their players. Best ways to avoid this?

Modders are already adding 10x more content in 1/10th the time. We will be relying on modders for the full game experience rather than the devs at this point.

Originally posted by k3rr3k:

Originally posted by Mharr:

So there's a generalised rebellion against having to choose between combat stats and being able to actually move, in a game that already has a huge modding community.

Seems like there's significant danger of a split there, with mods to recover pre-h&h balance becoming the 'real' version for most and IG working at cross purposes to their players. Best ways to avoid this?

Modders are already adding 10x more content in 1/10th the time. We will be relying on modders for the full game experience rather than the devs at this point.

I dunno - so far, nothing that I've seen from the modders has appealed to me. Guess I'll stay a "purist" and keep playing without mods. (I might add that I don't like mods in general. Haven't like them since Morrowind.)

Originally posted by Vela Darney:

Originally posted by k3rr3k:

Modders are already adding 10x more content in 1/10th the time. We will be relying on modders for the full game experience rather than the devs at this point.

I dunno - so far, nothing that I've seen from the modders has appealed to me. Guess I'll stay a "purist" and keep playing without mods. (I might add that I don't like mods in general. Haven't like them since Morrowind.)

I generally don't like mods either but they are the only ones putting out content.